"Going for the Visual"

Newps wrote in message news:0jTdc.112869$K91.324392@attbi_s02...

You don't take a visual approach until you're sure you can find the
airport visually.

You don't accept a visual until you can actually see the aiport.

That constitutes being sure you can find it, UNLESS you can also see
that you won't be able to see the airport between "now" and the time
you land (e.g. you can see it through a hole in the overcast). Being
able to see the aiport isn't enough. You need to be sure you can find
it and land at it.

It's very unusual, and not a good idea, to accept or request a visual
approach if you're not already sure you can make it.

No it's not. There's no reason to be sure you'll get the visual to
request to go have a look see at the MVA.

Going lower is not the same as accepting a visual approach.

Newps wrote in message news:0jTdc.112869$K91.324392@attbi_s02...

You don't accept a visual until you can actually see the aiport. You
can be vectored for a visual because you don't yet see the airport but
reasonably expect you might if you can get closer.

Scott,

I'm finding this very confusing. Can you direct me to where it says
I must actually see the airport to accept a visual approach?

We've been cleared for a visual approach many times when more
than 10 miles from a non-towered airport w/out an IAP. The
airport was definately not in sight. No vectoring was involved.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...

I'm finding this very confusing. Can you direct me to where it says
I must actually see the airport to accept a visual approach?

We've been cleared for a visual approach many times when more
than 10 miles from a non-towered airport w/out an IAP. The
airport was definately not in sight. No vectoring was involved.


Had you reported a preceding aircraft in sight that had been cleared for a
visual approach?


FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 7. Visual

Section 4. Approaches

7-4-3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL APPROACH

ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for visual approaches using
the following procedures:

NOTE-
Towers may exercise this authority when authorized by a LOA with the
facility that provides the IFR service, or by a facility directive at
collocated facilities.

a. Controllers may initiate, or pilots may request, a visual approach even
when an aircraft is being vectored for an instrument approach and the pilot
subsequently reports:

1. The airport or the runway in sight at airports with operating control
towers.

2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.

b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an
overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed
difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or
that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the
destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency
to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.

PHRASEOLOGY-
(Ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number);

or

(ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name)

(and if appropriate)

WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1.

c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:

1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or

2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports
the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or

NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.

3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the
preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual
separation is provided.

d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the
airplane manufacturer and model.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12 o'clock, six miles."

e. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position prior to communications
transfer at controlled airports. ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a
facility directive or LOA specifies control and communication transfer
points.

f. In addition to the requirements of para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual
Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d, and e, ensure that the location of the
destination airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report the
destination airport in sight.

g. In those instances where airports are located in close proximity, also
provide the location of the airport that may cause the confusion.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport is at
12 o'clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins Airport is at 1 o'clock 12 miles.
Report Cleveland Hopkins in sight."

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Approaches to Multiple Runways, Para 7-4-4.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message link.net...
"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...

Had you reported a preceding aircraft in sight that had been cleared for a
visual approach?

Nope. No one else going in to that non-towered airport IFR.
Typical exchange would go something like
"XX Center, Grumman 123 requests slow descent into Podunk"
"Grumman 123, descend and maintain three thousand."
(3000 will lose radar coverage and radio contact will be
iffy)
(around 3500 ft)
"Grumman 123, radar contact lost, you are cleared for the
visual approach into Podunk, no observed traffic between
you and the airport, change to advisory approved, report
cancellation with Flight Service"

FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control
Chapter 7. Visual
2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.

That looks pretty unambiguous.

My guess is what I've run into is someone who knows if he
waits to clear me until I report the airport in sight, the
chances that he'll have lost both radar contact and comms
with me are pretty high, and has decided to simplify his
life.

Cheers,
Sydney





b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an
overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed
difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or
that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the
destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency
to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.

PHRASEOLOGY-
(Ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number);

or

(ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name)

(and if appropriate)

WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1.

c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:

1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or

2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports
the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or

NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.

3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the
preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual
separation is provided.

d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the
airplane manufacturer and model.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12 o'clock, six miles."

e. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position prior to communications
transfer at controlled airports. ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a
facility directive or LOA specifies control and communication transfer
points.

f. In addition to the requirements of para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual
Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d, and e, ensure that the location of the
destination airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report the
destination airport in sight.

g. In those instances where airports are located in close proximity, also
provide the location of the airport that may cause the confusion.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport is at
12 o'clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins Airport is at 1 o'clock 12 miles.
Report Cleveland Hopkins in sight."

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Approaches to Multiple Runways, Para 7-4-4.

(Snowbird) wrote
My guess is what I've run into is someone who knows if he
waits to clear me until I report the airport in sight, the
chances that he'll have lost both radar contact and comms
with me are pretty high, and has decided to simplify his
life.

That sounds realistic. On the other hand, the controller has an
option that is just as simple and not contrary to regulation. The
option is a cruise clearance. That allows you to shoot any approach,
which presumably includes the visual and preserves the option of
shooting a SIAP if you don't get the airport in sight, or the contact
if the vis isn't quite good enough for the visual.

Michael

(Snowbird) wrote:
(around 3500 ft)
"Grumman 123, radar contact lost, you are cleared for the
visual approach into Podunk, no observed traffic between
you and the airport, change to advisory approved, report
cancellation with Flight Service"

I was just re-reading some back postings in this thread and something
struck me odd about the above. If the radar coverage floor is 3500, how
could there *possibly* be any observed traffic between you and the
airport.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control
[...]
the pilot subsequently reports:

1. The airport or the runway in sight at airports with operating control
towers.

2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.

Why the distinction? Given that the runway is part of the airport,
under what circumstances could you possibly have the runway, but not the
airport, in sight?

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Why the distinction? Given that the runway is part of the airport,
under what circumstances could you possibly have the runway,
but not the airport, in sight?


Beats the hell outta me.

Roy Smith wrote in news:roy-
:

Why the distinction? Given that the runway is part of the airport,
under what circumstances could you possibly have the runway, but not the
airport, in sight?

Roy, you're expecting logic from the FAA? ??? :-D

--
Regards,

Stan

Snowbird wrote:
Newps wrote in message news:0jTdc.112869$K91.324392@attbi_s02...


You don't accept a visual until you can actually see the aiport. You
can be vectored for a visual because you don't yet see the airport but
reasonably expect you might if you can get closer.




I'm finding this very confusing. Can you direct me to where it says
I must actually see the airport to accept a visual approach?

We've been cleared for a visual approach many times when more
than 10 miles from a non-towered airport w/out an IAP. The
airport was definately not in sight. No vectoring was involved.


You must either see the airport or the preceding aircraft. In the real
world it is only a tiny percentage of aircraft that get a visual
approach and don't have the airport in sight but are following another
aircraft. Here in Billings we give a lot of visual approach clearances
on initial contact because the pilot calls the airport in sight 40 miles
out. Are you saying that the center, for no apparent reason, is just
giving you a visual approach clearance without you first calling the
airport in sight? If that's the case just say "unable". Whether or not
an airport has an IAP is not relavant.