LS10 info

J. N. wrote:
I don`t think you`re right.

In fact, if you take a look at the inflation, gliders have become
cheaper, or equally priced compared to 1980.

So the whole problem isn`t about more expensive gliders but less glider
pilots which mean less sold, which means a larger penalty per glider
for development. Thát`s the problem.

I bought a new ASW 20 C in 1984, which cost me about $28,000 US. This
was during a period of a strong dollar. Using the $100,000 US figure for
a new ASW 27, that's 3.6 times more, or an average of ~6% inflation a
year. I don't know what's it's really been, but that sounds about right.
I have to agree that the price is comparable to 22 years ago. I think
that is remarkable, because '84 was a period of a strong dollar (vs the
Mark), and now is a period of a relatively weak dollar (vs the Euro).

For the US, the results of this calculation will depend a lot on when
you do it, due to the substantial currency variations. In the 30 years
I've been in the sport, I've seen gliders become very cheap twice.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Earlier, wrote:

Here is a quote from the DG/LS web site...it is, in my humble opinion,
worrisome statement :

...

The cost for developing the LS-10 will definitely be more than 500.000
Euros. This requires precise planning...

Well, that's for a large company heavily ballasted with business
overhead and strong European-style employment protection. A
low-overhead operation like mine, developing towards certification
under the US amateur-built experimental rules, can undercut that
substantially and still offer performance, quality, and amenities
similar to the European racers.

And we probably will. At the ADF III last week we laid up and closed
the first real fuselage. We're still on track to meet our $17500 Y2K
base kit price, balanced for oil and inflation.

Unfortunately, with oil more than doubling those year 2000 dollars are
now worth about $25000. And with Boeing and Airbus buying all the
carbon fiber the world can make, it'll be some time before the carbon
market returns to something like normal. And worse, our schedule is
slipping towards 2007.

But we'll keep plugging at it. We'll make another fuselage in the next
few weeks, and then we'll get all gooey with the wing plugs to make the
wing molds.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

Slightly OT:

Bob, I applaud your effort, and wish you the best of luck with the
Hp-24. However - I'll never buy one, unfortunately, no matter how
inexpensive and high performance it turns out, because I have
absolutely NO interest in a kit. I want to fly, not build. And I've
got a sneaky suspicion that the majority of pilots in the market for
high performance gliders feel the same way.

I do hope I'm wrong - I'd love to race against a nice shiny new hp-24
some day soon!

Kirk

Earlier, wrote:

Slightly OT:

Bob, I applaud your effort, and wish you the best of luck with the
Hp-24. However - I'll never buy one, unfortunately, no matter how
inexpensive and high performance it turns out, because I have
absolutely NO interest in a kit. I want to fly, not build. And I've
got a sneaky suspicion that the majority of pilots in the market for
high performance gliders feel the same way.

I do hope I'm wrong - I'd love to race against a nice shiny new hp-24
some day soon!

Nothing wrong with that point of view; you're probably in the majority
of sailplane pilots in that regard, and I respect it completely.

However, I'd observe that what we're talking about is a matter of
degree. There's kits and then there's kits. When it comes right down to
it, the glider you are flying right now is probably a kit - you do have
to get the wings out of the trailer and put them together, right? So
there must be some sort of threshold value of "kittishness" that you
won't cross, and it sounds like you draw the line at well under an hour
of assembly. That's fine, but still a far cry from "never."

And it's worth noting that the kit glider I'm developing, like most of
the current crop of kit sailplanes, bears almost zero resemblance with
the kits of the 1960's and 1970's or even 1990's. What you get is a
complete fuselage shell, with the right and left halves already bonded
togther. The top and bottom wing skins come pre-assembled, with the
spar installed. There's still a lot of work for the builder, but the
major part of it is systems installation and bonding together
pre-indexed parts. I figure that it'd run on the order of 350 hours or
so, maybe less. That's still a bunch of time, but it is less time (and
much less finnicky work) than it takes to refinish an old ASW-20.

I prefer to think of it like IKEA furniture; it's not really a kit,
there's just some assembly required...

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

Bob,

Interesting comparison, but you will have a real hard time convincing
me my nice old LS6 is a "kit" just because I rig it every time I fly
it. Using that definition, everything that has any maintenance done on
it is a "kit". From my perspective, I see a lot of difference between
rigging my wings and building them!

But an "A" for originality and effort, nevertheless!

And I know there are a lot of people out there who will jump in and
build a kit - especially one that sounds as complete and well
engineered as the hp-24. But those people also take a lot of pride in
building something with their own hands. And I have no problem with
kit furniture. But no way can I see myself building a kit glider. As
another poster has beautifully pointed out - I just don't have the time
anymore - too many other things to do when I'm not flying!

Cheers,

Kirk

In article .com,
wrote:

Bob,

Interesting comparison, but you will have a real hard time convincing
me my nice old LS6 is a "kit" just because I rig it every time I fly
it. Using that definition, everything that has any maintenance done on
it is a "kit". From my perspective, I see a lot of difference between
rigging my wings and building them!

But an "A" for originality and effort, nevertheless!

And I know there are a lot of people out there who will jump in and
build a kit - especially one that sounds as complete and well
engineered as the hp-24. But those people also take a lot of pride in
building something with their own hands. And I have no problem with
kit furniture. But no way can I see myself building a kit glider. As
another poster has beautifully pointed out - I just don't have the time
anymore - too many other things to do when I'm not flying!

Cheers,

Kirk


Every d**ned airplane I've ever owned has been a "kit" (even if if was
factory built and represented as "ready to fly").