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#61
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I've read enough stories about FAA actions and NTSB appeals to know that logic seems often absent in these proceedings. Then applying logic (or any other kind of reasoning for that matter) to this question is also pointless. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#62
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Teacherjh wrote:
I've read enough stories about FAA actions and NTSB appeals to know that logic seems often absent in these proceedings. Then applying logic (or any other kind of reasoning for that matter) to this question is also pointless. That is why I initially was trying to find an FAR related to it mattering which seat you were in! :-) Matt |
#63
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Matt Whiting wrote:
The FAA isn't always logical. I got a third email from Amy and she said an acquaintance of hers was a student pilot and went up with another pilot (not an instructor) and was flying in the left seat. The FAA caught wind of this and made the claim that the student was acting as PIC because they were the sole manipulator of the controls and was seated in the left seat which is traditionally the seat occupied by the PIC. Since another person was in the airplane at the time, the student lost their certificate for 120 days for carrying a passenger illegally. She said this was challenged and was upheld in court. I don't know all the details and am not going to send Amy a 4th email, but I have no reason to doubt what she's saying. I've read enough stories about FAA actions and NTSB appeals to know that logic seems often absent in these proceedings. Matt The notion that a student pilot can't handle the controls from the left seat, but an unrated passenger can seems beyond even FAA illogic. Similarly, the notion that it would be okay if the student were in the right seat, but a problem from the left seat seems completely crazy. You could construct scenarios in which I could imagine them going after a student, though. I suppose if a student owned a tailwheel plane and was signed off to fly it, and asked me to go up for a ride, given that I am not capable of being PIC for that plane, its possible the FAA might go after the student for carrying a passenger. And since there would be no legal PIC on the plane, I guess the FAA might decide that given that the student was the sole manipulator of the controls and sitting in the "typical" PIC seat that they would go after the student's license rather than mine. I'm going to guess that it was some scenario of this sort where there was no legal PIC despite a pilot and a student pilot being in the plane, and they used the seat position plus who was handling the controls to decide who to prosecute. If so, that's very different from "you can't allow a student pilot to fly from the left seat if you are not a CFI." -- David Rind |
#64
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David Rind wrote:
The notion that a student pilot can't handle the controls from the left seat, but an unrated passenger can seems beyond even FAA illogic. Similarly, the notion that it would be okay if the student were in the right seat, but a problem from the left seat seems completely crazy. My guess is that this was just part of a collection of evidence trying to establish the pilot's intent. I know nothing about this particular case, but let's assume that you have the following: 1. There are two people in the plane. 2. The student pilot owns the plane. 3. The other occupant is a licensed private pilot, but not an instructor. 4. The other occupant's logbook shows that he has never been PIC of this plane before. 5. The other occupant is not on the insurance for the plane. Now, imagine that you're an investigator, and your job is to decide the student pilot's actual intent. Obviously, there's nothing illegal about flying from the right seat, but when you put that together with the other evidence, it might be enough to convince you that the student pilot was, in fact, intending to fly as PIC in the left seat. This is purely hypothetical, of course, since I don't know the details of the actual case, but if something like this did happen, it would be a gross overreaction to say that the FAA had ruled that flying from the right seat was illegal. It's similar to a case where an accused burgler was seen driving slowly past your house the day before a robbery -- there's nothing illegal about driving slowly past a house, but together with other evidence (such as fingerprints, lack of alibi, or possession of some stolen property), it can help to convince a judge or jury that the accused person is actually guilty. All the best, David |
#65
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running with scissors wrote:
Rich Ahrens wrote in message isi.com... running with scissors wrote: Bob Moore wrote in message .8... (running with scissors) wrote you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith. As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat, and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls. The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172. Bob Moore you are missing the whole point of the post. the original poster stated that it was sightseeing flight and it was a passenger, zero experience, who would be in the left seat and the poster was not a rated instructor. Leaving aside the fact that the original poster made no such statement, what do you suppose those Young Eagle flights were if not sightseeing? quote From: Anthony Acri ) Subject: Right Seat Flying Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some people up for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been doing my instructors courses. Thanks end quote Christ, you're getting as pigheaded or intellectually dishonest as Tarver. Or both. Your quote is neither the original poster nor the original post. That was: -------- Original Message -------- From: Matt Whiting Newsgroups: rec.aviation.ifr Subject: Right seat flying Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:20:32 -0400 This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted to instruction. I just received the May/June issue of Aviator's Guide and they make an interesting claim on page 38. In the third paragraph they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat. I've never thought about doing this, but never considered that it could be illegal. Can anyone here confirm this, preferably with a reference to the approriate FAR? I've never come across an FAR that addressed this before. Matt |
#66
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"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ... This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted to instruction. r.a student devotes a considerable amount of discussion to instruction. Many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting flying from the right seat with a non-pilot or no pilot at the controls in the left seat unless you are using the aircraft for instruction. You will find it in the POH or in the type certification. It would be illegal to fly such an aircraft from the right seat. I don't have the manual in front of me, but I *think* this is even true of the newer Cessna Skyhawks. I will have to check. Anyway, many aircraft rental outfits also prohibit it. Part 135 also has this to say (although this prohibition applies equally well to any pilot seat): § 135.113 Passenger occupancy of pilot seat. top No certificate holder may operate an aircraft type certificated after October 15, 1971, that has a passenger seating configuration, excluding any pilot seat, of more than eight seats if any person other than the pilot in command, a second in command, a company check airman, or an authorized representative of the Administrator, the National Transportation Safety Board, or the United States Postal Service occupies a pilot seat. § 135.115 Manipulation of controls. top No pilot in command may allow any person to manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft during flight conducted under this part, nor may any person manipulate the controls during such flight unless that person is- (a) A pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft; or (b) An authorized safety representative of the Administrator who has the permission of the pilot in command, is qualified in the aircraft, and is checking flight operations. |
#67
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C J Campbell wrote:
Many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting flying from the right seat with a non-pilot or no pilot at the controls in the left seat unless you are using the aircraft for instruction. You will find it in the POH or in the type certification. It would be illegal to fly such an aircraft from the right seat. I don't have the manual in front of me, but I *think* this is even true of the newer Cessna Skyhawks. I will have to check. I checked the Limitations sections for the Cessna 172P, 172R, 182P, and PA-28-161 -- none of them has an limitations concerning the right seat. The only seat-related limitation is that the rear seats have to be empty for operation in utility category. I also don't remember any seat limitation in the TCDS for the 172 or the PA28, or in the insurance policy for my Warrior. I'm not about to rush out and try it, though, at least not without an instructor in the left seat (at least the first few times). All the best, DAvid |
#68
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"C J Campbell" wrote:
Many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting flying from the right seat with a non-pilot or no pilot at the controls in the left seat unless you are using the aircraft for instruction Really, which ones????????? What is your source for this information. Or are you just an ABM? And 135 does not apply here. |
#69
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wrote in message ... "C J Campbell" wrote: Many aircraft have a limitation prohibiting flying from the right seat with a non-pilot or no pilot at the controls in the left seat unless you are using the aircraft for instruction Really, which ones????????? What is your source for this information. Well, the manual for the Cessna 208 has this to say on page 2-12: Flight Crew Limits One pilot required in left seat. I am fairly sure I have seen similar language in some other manuals. Or are you just an ABM? I don't know ABM, unless you mean anti-ballistic missile. Perhaps you have much more reason to be familiar with the term than have I. And 135 does not apply here. It may be what the person who wrote the article in the Aviators Guide might have been thinking of. |
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