ASW20A and Cirrus

Rowan Griffin wrote:

There's probably a scare story for every glider made,
so read about it and learn from other people's mistakes...ASW20
elevator works perfectly if you remember to connect
it,
I urge you to consider a B or C models. I know many people - all
experienced pilots - that took off with the elevator not connected in an
ASW 20. It's just an ASW 20 problem, of course. I think it's a lot
easier to deal with a disconnected flap or aileron, and it seems these
are much less likely to be overlooked.

snip

Only ever wire launched it, which it does well. BUT
it is extremely important to make sure that the flap
lever is fully engaged with the gate (and that is unworn),
as there have been serious accidents where the flaps
have slipped into full landing on the wire, causing
an immediate stall...I have heard of the same thing
happening on the airtow ground run, though with less
dramatic outcome.

Do you mean the flaps slipped into a high speed position? It takes a
fair amount of force to pull the flaps into the landing position, but
they will slide easily forward into a negative flap position. This will
reduce the lift and cause the glider to descend, which might look like a
stall. Regardless, having the flap handle move itself to a new position
is a bad thing!

Get a carbon sparred wing one - the others feel like
they come pre filled with water ballast, seriously!

Frankly, most ASW 20 pilots consider the bendy wings a real asset and
part of their charm! It was one of the reasons it was so popular with
the ridge runners on the Alleghenies: those bendy wings give it a
smoother, more comfortable ride in turbulence. I certainly enjoyed the
smooth ride in my ASW 20C, and was a bit disappointed that the carbon
fiber wing of my ASH 26 E wasn't so forgiving. It's still bendy compared
to many gliders, but not like the ASW 20 and 20 C.

Regardless, I know the ASW 20 and 20 C did not have carbon fiber spars,
and I'm pretty sure the B didn't either. The B model did have much
heavier wings because of the extra fiberglass to needed carry the extra
water ballast it was rated for, but I think was mostly due to thicker
wing skins. Should you decide on an ASW 20 model, and you don't need the
extra wing loading, go for a C model.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Eric Greenwell wrote:

I urge you to consider a B or C models. I know many people - all
experienced pilots - that took off with the elevator not connected in an
ASW 20. It's just an ASW 20 problem, of course.

This was supposed to be "It's NOT just an ASW 20 problem, of course".

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

At 22:06 10 March 2006, Shawn wrote:
Jono Richards wrote:

I know I am edging on the more expensive gliders,
but
why not 'share' the glider with a partner, and get
something a bit sporty like a Discus, ASW24 or DG300/303?
Finding a partner who flies, say, during the week
means
you save half the rice you would have to pay and still
get to fly it pretty much when you want.

That's a lot of rice!
My suggestion is to talk to the people in your area
that fly these
ships. Lots more out there than 20s and Cirrii.

Shawn

Hmm...looks like I got a dodgy 'P' key....

Jono Richards wrote:
At 22:06 10 March 2006, Shawn wrote:

Jono Richards wrote:


I know I am edging on the more expensive gliders,
but
why not 'share' the glider with a partner, and get
something a bit sporty like a Discus, ASW24 or DG300/303?
Finding a partner who flies, say, during the week
means
you save half the rice you would have to pay and still
get to fly it pretty much when you want.

That's a lot of rice!
My suggestion is to talk to the people in your area
that fly these
ships. Lots more out there than 20s and Cirrii.

Shawn


Hmm...looks like I got a dodgy 'P' key....

I figured, but still couldn't resist. :-)
Would indeed be a lot of rice!

Shawn

At 18:48 11 March 2006, Shawn wrote:
Jono Richards wrote:
At 22:06 10 March 2006, Shawn wrote:

Jono Richards wrote:


I know I am edging on the more expensive gliders,
but
why not 'share' the glider with a partner, and get
something a bit sporty like a Discus, ASW24 or DG300/303?
Finding a partner who flies, say, during the week
means
you save half the rice you would have to pay and still
get to fly it pretty much when you want.

That's a lot of rice!
My suggestion is to talk to the people in your area
that fly these
ships. Lots more out there than 20s and Cirrii.

Shawn


Hmm...looks like I got a dodgy 'P' key....

I figured, but still couldn't resist. :-)
Would indeed be a lot of rice!

Shawn


Oh yes... could use it to feed competitors on scrub
days

:-p

At 17:00 11 March 2006, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Rowan Griffin wrote:

There's probably a scare story for every glider made,
so read about it and learn from other people's mistakes...ASW20
elevator works perfectly if you remember to connect
it,
I urge you to consider a B or C models. I know many
people - all
experienced pilots - that took off with the elevator
not connected in an
ASW 20. It's just an ASW 20 problem, of course. I think
it's a lot
easier to deal with a disconnected flap or aileron,
and it seems these
are much less likely to be overlooked.

snip

Only ever wire launched it, which it does well. BUT
it is extremely important to make sure that the flap
lever is fully engaged with the gate (and that is
unworn),
as there have been serious accidents where the flaps
have slipped into full landing on the wire, causing
an immediate stall...I have heard of the same thing
happening on the airtow ground run, though with less
dramatic outcome.

Do you mean the flaps slipped into a high speed position?
It takes a
fair amount of force to pull the flaps into the landing
position, but
they will slide easily forward into a negative flap
position. This will
reduce the lift and cause the glider to descend, which
might look like a
stall. Regardless, having the flap handle move itself
to a new position
is a bad thing!

You have to be correct there - thinking about it, the
flap handle would want to fly forward. I didn't witness
the accident I was thinking of but the glider was observed
doing a snap roll on the wire and crashing inverted
- maybe the pilot reacted to the sudden loss of lift
by hauling the stick back?

Get a carbon sparred wing one - the others feel like
they come pre filled with water ballast, seriously!

Frankly, most ASW 20 pilots consider the bendy wings
a real asset and
part of their charm! It was one of the reasons it was
so popular with
the ridge runners on the Alleghenies: those bendy wings
give it a
smoother, more comfortable ride in turbulence. I certainly
enjoyed the
smooth ride in my ASW 20C, and was a bit disappointed
that the carbon
fiber wing of my ASH 26 E wasn't so forgiving. It's
still bendy compared
to many gliders, but not like the ASW 20 and 20 C.

Regardless, I know the ASW 20 and 20 C did not have
carbon fiber spars,
and I'm pretty sure the B didn't either. The B model
did have much
heavier wings because of the extra fiberglass to needed
carry the extra
water ballast it was rated for, but I think was mostly
due to thicker
wing skins. Should you decide on an ASW 20 model, and
you don't need the
extra wing loading, go for a C model.

I fully agree with you about the bendy wing, it was
the sheer weight of rigging I was referring to. The
one I flew had much heavier wings than another I helped
rig some years later and I was told it had a carbon
spar??

--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download 'A Guide to Self-launching
Sailplane
Operation'

Rowan Griffin wrote:
At 17:00 11 March 2006, Eric Greenwell wrote:


I didn't witness the accident I was thinking of but
the glider was observed doing a snap roll on the wire
and crashing inverted
- maybe the pilot reacted to the sudden loss of lift
by hauling the stick back?

What you have described is a stall /spin while during a winch launch.
Caused by too high an angle of attack -- for what ever reason.

Rowan Griffin wrote:

I fully agree with you about the bendy wing, it was
the sheer weight of rigging I was referring to. The
one I flew had much heavier wings than another I helped
rig some years later and I was told it had a carbon
spar??

The C model, which I flew for 11 years, did not have a carbon spar. It's
wing was the same weight (and structurally the same) at the original ASW
20 (sometimes called the A model). The wing had a different airfoil,
blow-hole turbulators, mylar control gap fairings, and only a 40 degree
landing flap. Also, it had the automatic hookup elevator, a shock
absorbing gear design with a 500 x 5 wheel and a disk brake.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

At 10:42 13 March 2006, Bert Willing wrote:

'Jono Richards' wrote in
message ...
Although never actually flown a DG200/202 I have heard
great things about them - good performance at ~45:1

Make that 41. 42 on 17m wings...



Try this...

http://www.vectisglidingclub.co.uk/html/dg200_17.html

and look at the bit that says:

'L/D max. 42 106 kph / 57 kt / 66 mph
(45 126 kph/ 68 kt/ 78 mph)'

The brackets being 17m....

JR

I rather look at measurements than at manufacturer claims...

"Jono Richards" wrote in
message ...
At 10:42 13 March 2006, Bert Willing wrote:

'Jono Richards' wrote in
message ...
Although never actually flown a DG200/202 I have heard
great things about them - good performance at ~45:1

Make that 41. 42 on 17m wings...



Try this...

http://www.vectisglidingclub.co.uk/html/dg200_17.html

and look at the bit that says:

'L/D max. 42 106 kph / 57 kt / 66 mph
(45 126 kph/ 68 kt/ 78 mph)'

The brackets being 17m....

JR