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ILS question



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 16th 04, 10:14 PM
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Chris Brooks wrote:

I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?


At 17 miles you were not within a published segment of the approach. ATC was
required to give you an altitude to maintain and which to cross HAIGS. A
proper clearance would have been "X miles from HAIGS. Cross HAIGS at, or
above, 4,000, cleared for the ILS Runway 27 approach." The word "established"
is inappropriate in this instance. If you did not receive such a clearance
you were obligated to maintain 5,000 and question the clearance because 5,000
is not a reasonable altitude to cross HAIGS.

REF: ATC Handbook 7110.65P, Paragraph 4-8-1 b.2., Example for Aircraft 2 under
that subparagraph.

And, if you were vectored to the localizer that far out, then Paragraph 5-9-4
2. would apply, which is the radar arrival equivalent of the first cite;
specifically the Example Aircraft 4 under that subparagraph.

This section of approach clearances has often been misapplied and was the
subject of an Air Traffic Bulletin about three years ago.


  #2  
Old June 16th 04, 10:20 PM
Chris Brooks
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When does a published part of the approach begin? At HAIGS? Can you be
considered on a published part of the approach before crossing HAIGS?

Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence to
descend to 4,000 feet?

Most of the time when shooting ILS's the controller will step you down to
the altitude that is on the chart.

wrote in message ...


Chris Brooks wrote:

I am training in the maryland area. I was cleared for an ILS approach to
runway 27 at HGR the other day.

Here is a plate:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0406/05114I27.PDF

I was about 17 miles out at 5000 feet when I got cleared for the

approach.
My question is, when can I descend to 4000 feet?

Anyone?


At 17 miles you were not within a published segment of the approach. ATC

was
required to give you an altitude to maintain and which to cross HAIGS. A
proper clearance would have been "X miles from HAIGS. Cross HAIGS at, or
above, 4,000, cleared for the ILS Runway 27 approach." The word

"established"
is inappropriate in this instance. If you did not receive such a

clearance
you were obligated to maintain 5,000 and question the clearance because

5,000
is not a reasonable altitude to cross HAIGS.

REF: ATC Handbook 7110.65P, Paragraph 4-8-1 b.2., Example for Aircraft 2

under
that subparagraph.

And, if you were vectored to the localizer that far out, then Paragraph

5-9-4
2. would apply, which is the radar arrival equivalent of the first cite;
specifically the Example Aircraft 4 under that subparagraph.

This section of approach clearances has often been misapplied and was the
subject of an Air Traffic Bulletin about three years ago.




  #3  
Old June 17th 04, 12:10 AM
Newps
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"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

We need more information. Exactly where were you and exactly what did the
controller say? If you were VFR and practicing approaches while VFR then it
doesn't matter what he said because the last thing he'll say is maintain
VFR. When you are VFR it is not necessary for the controller to follow the
regs as if you were IFR.


When does a published part of the approach begin?


On any thick black line.


At HAIGS?

Sure.

Can you be
considered on a published part of the approach before crossing HAIGS?


While doing the procedure turn.




Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence

to
descend to 4,000 feet?


Yes.



Most of the time when shooting ILS's the controller will step you down to
the altitude that is on the chart.


Were you IFR at the time? If you were VFR then the controller does not ever
have to mention an altitude.


  #4  
Old June 17th 04, 12:42 AM
Chris Brooks
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I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.


Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence

to
descend to 4,000 feet?


Yes.


Can you provide a reference for that fact? So if that is the case, when can
the descent be initiated? Pilots discretion?



"Newps" wrote in message
...

"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

We need more information. Exactly where were you and exactly what did the
controller say? If you were VFR and practicing approaches while VFR then

it
doesn't matter what he said because the last thing he'll say is maintain
VFR. When you are VFR it is not necessary for the controller to follow

the
regs as if you were IFR.


When does a published part of the approach begin?


On any thick black line.


At HAIGS?

Sure.

Can you be
considered on a published part of the approach before crossing HAIGS?


While doing the procedure turn.




Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence

to
descend to 4,000 feet?


Yes.



Most of the time when shooting ILS's the controller will step you down

to
the altitude that is on the chart.


Were you IFR at the time? If you were VFR then the controller does not

ever
have to mention an altitude.




  #5  
Old June 17th 04, 02:30 AM
Newps
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"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a

clearence
to
descend to 4,000 feet?


Yes.


Can you provide a reference for that fact?


What's the alternative? What else could you do? That clearance is
essentially a pilots discretion descent. All you gotta do is make the
crossing restriction which in this case is an at or above altitude. Most
pilots in this situation would just stay at your previous altitude until
intercepting the glideslope, then follow it down.


So if that is the case, when can
the descent be initiated?


Right now if you want.

Pilots discretion?

Yes.



  #6  
Old June 17th 04, 03:41 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.


You can descend to 4000 immediately.


  #7  
Old June 17th 04, 02:28 PM
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Chris Brooks wrote:

I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.


Also, if he said cross HAIGS at or above 4,000 feet, is that a clearence

to
descend to 4,000 feet?


Yes.


Can you provide a reference for that fact? So if that is the case, when can
the descent be initiated? Pilots discretion?


Did you read the ATC Handbook references I provided to you? The current ATC
Handbook is on the FAA's web site:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/index.htm

  #8  
Old June 17th 04, 03:31 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.


In that case, you can descend to 4000 immediately. But why descend to 4000
at all? At the time you were cleared for the approach you were about 900
feet below the glideslope.


  #9  
Old June 17th 04, 03:52 AM
Roy Smith
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"Newps" wrote:
We need more information. Exactly where were you and exactly what did the
controller say? If you were VFR and practicing approaches while VFR then it
doesn't matter what he said because the last thing he'll say is maintain
VFR. When you are VFR it is not necessary for the controller to follow the
regs as if you were IFR.


From a purely instructor-centric point of view, I would prefer that
controllers treat VFR practice approaches *exactly* like IFR ones. It's
a training exercise; the more things you do differently from real life,
the less effective the training is.

One thing I see fairly often is controllers not assigning altitudes on
VFR practice approaches. You end up with one of two scenarios, neither
of which is very useful:

1) You stay high until you're so far above the charted descent profile
that you can't possibly make it down in time.

2) You ask the controller for lower and get back, "altitude your
descretion, maintain VFR". A not so sharp student might start to think
that the altitude is ALWAYS his discretion in a situation like this.

In any case, you end up eating up brain cycles sorting out how high you
should be, when the issue would never come up on an IFR flight.
  #10  
Old June 17th 04, 04:22 AM
Andrew Sarangan
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Roy Smith wrote in
:

"Newps" wrote:
We need more information. Exactly where were you and exactly what
did the controller say? If you were VFR and practicing approaches
while VFR then it doesn't matter what he said because the last thing
he'll say is maintain VFR. When you are VFR it is not necessary for
the controller to follow the regs as if you were IFR.


From a purely instructor-centric point of view, I would prefer that
controllers treat VFR practice approaches *exactly* like IFR ones.
It's a training exercise; the more things you do differently from real
life, the less effective the training is.

One thing I see fairly often is controllers not assigning altitudes on
VFR practice approaches. You end up with one of two scenarios,
neither of which is very useful:

1) You stay high until you're so far above the charted descent profile
that you can't possibly make it down in time.

2) You ask the controller for lower and get back, "altitude your
descretion, maintain VFR". A not so sharp student might start to
think that the altitude is ALWAYS his discretion in a situation like
this.

In any case, you end up eating up brain cycles sorting out how high
you should be, when the issue would never come up on an IFR flight.




Every region must have different operating pratices because around here
VFR and IFR approaches are treated almost exactly the same except for the
phrase "maintain VFR".

 




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