A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Instrument Flight Rules
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

ILS question



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 18th 04, 10:20 PM
J Haggerty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

At 17 miles point, he's not on a published portion of the approach,
since he's not doing the hold-in-lieu of PT. He should have received a
crossing restriction until HAIGS, since the vector did not place him on
the localizer within the published portion of the approach.
Approach could have provided a radar initial and cleared him to 4000
until HAIGS, but without that clearance, he's stuck at the last assigned
altitude until reaching HAIGS. At that point he can descend to 4000 if
he needs a course reversal, or 2900 if he continues straight-in.
I'm sure 4000 is fine at that point, because that's what the
hold-in-lieu uses, but from a procedural (TERPS and ATC) standpoint the
only "straight-in" procedure track at 17 miles is a radar initial from
ATC, and that altitude needs to be specified by ATC. The pilot could
even have been cleared to 2900 if it met the radar MVAC, but either way,
ATC has to provide the altitude to the pilot outside HAIGS.

JPH

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.



In that case, you can descend to 4000 immediately. But why descend to 4000
at all? At the time you were cleared for the approach you were about 900
feet below the glideslope.


  #2  
Old June 18th 04, 11:25 PM
Chris Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks, that is a good reply.

Do you confirm that if you hear "cross HAIGS at 4000 feet", that you can
immediately descend from whatever altitude you are at. Say you are at 5,000
feet (as I was). If you hear that you can descend to 4,000? Usually won't
the controller issue you a descent to 4,000 and then the crossing
restriction? Such as "descend maintain 4,000... cross HAIGS at 4,000,
cleared ILS 27". What if they just said "descend maintain 4,000, cleared ILS
27"... is that not proper procedure?


"J Haggerty" wrote in message
news:B0JAc.20624$1L4.19005@okepread02...
At 17 miles point, he's not on a published portion of the approach,
since he's not doing the hold-in-lieu of PT. He should have received a
crossing restriction until HAIGS, since the vector did not place him on
the localizer within the published portion of the approach.
Approach could have provided a radar initial and cleared him to 4000
until HAIGS, but without that clearance, he's stuck at the last assigned
altitude until reaching HAIGS. At that point he can descend to 4000 if
he needs a course reversal, or 2900 if he continues straight-in.
I'm sure 4000 is fine at that point, because that's what the
hold-in-lieu uses, but from a procedural (TERPS and ATC) standpoint the
only "straight-in" procedure track at 17 miles is a radar initial from
ATC, and that altitude needs to be specified by ATC. The pilot could
even have been cleared to 2900 if it met the radar MVAC, but either way,
ATC has to provide the altitude to the pilot outside HAIGS.

JPH

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Chris Brooks" wrote in message
...

I was 17 miles EAST of the airport, intercepting the localizer. I was at
5000 feet, and just got "cleared for the approach". I was IFR.



In that case, you can descend to 4000 immediately. But why descend to

4000
at all? At the time you were cleared for the approach you were about

900
feet below the glideslope.




  #3  
Old June 19th 04, 05:33 PM
J Haggerty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Chris Brooks wrote:
Thanks, that is a good reply.

Do you confirm that if you hear "cross HAIGS at 4000 feet", that you can
immediately descend from whatever altitude you are at. Say you are at 5,000
feet (as I was). If you hear that you can descend to 4,000? Usually won't
the controller issue you a descent to 4,000 and then the crossing
restriction? Such as "descend maintain 4,000... cross HAIGS at 4,000,
cleared ILS 27".


By providing an approach clearance and a crossing restriction, the
controller has authorized you to descend to that altitude immediately,
and to maintain that altitude until you reach the fix where the altitude
restriction applies.

What if they just said "descend maintain 4,000, cleared ILS
27"... is that not proper procedure?

No, that's similar to what was given to TWA 514 (the airliner crash that
initiated the requirement for specific altitudes and clearances). In
that situation, the pilot was established at 7000 when cleared for the
approach, but not yet on a published portion of the procedure. The rules
were less clear back then, but the pilot should have been told to
maintain a specific altitude, as well as a point where that altitude no
longer applied (i.e., maintain 7000 until crossing XXXXX). When the
controller says "maintain 4000" they're supposed to also state the point
where the 4000 restriction no longer applies. It should be "maintain
4000 until HAIGS" if you intercept East of HAIGS, or "4000 until
established on the localizer" if interception is inside of HAIGS. I'm
concerned that some controllers feel that intercepting a localizer
anywhere is all that is needed, but that only works if the localizer
intercept point is within a published part of the procedure, or for this
approach, inside HAIGS.
You can review the TWA crash details at
http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/sp9806.html
  #4  
Old June 19th 04, 07:53 PM
Chris Brooks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

By providing an approach clearance and a crossing restriction, the
controller has authorized you to descend to that altitude immediately,
and to maintain that altitude until you reach the fix where the altitude
restriction applies.


Again, excellent reply... thank you for your help. Do you know where the
above is written? ATC handbook I am assuming, but what part?

Thanks again.


  #5  
Old June 20th 04, 04:35 AM
J Haggerty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Here's a note from the Air Traffic Control "bible"; FAAO 7110.65P

NOTE-
1. A descent clearance which specifies a crossing altitude authorizes
descent at pilot's discretion for that portion of the flight to which
the crossing altitude restriction applies.

This can be found here at this link;
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0405.html#4-5-7

You might also be interested in Example 4 under para 5-9-4. ARRIVAL
INSTRUCTIONS found at this link;
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0509.html#5-9-1

"Aircraft 4 is established on the final approach course beyond the
approach segments, 8 miles from Alpha at 6,000 feet. The MVA for this
area is 4,000 feet. "Eight miles from Alpha. Cross Alpha at or above
four thousand. Cleared I-L-S runway three six approach."
(See FIG 5-9-1.)"
The depicted situation is very similar to the first question posed
regarding the approach procedure.

JPH


Chris Brooks wrote:
By providing an approach clearance and a crossing restriction, the
controller has authorized you to descend to that altitude immediately,
and to maintain that altitude until you reach the fix where the altitude
restriction applies.



Again, excellent reply... thank you for your help. Do you know where the
above is written? ATC handbook I am assuming, but what part?

Thanks again.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A question on Airworthiness Inspection Dave S Home Built 1 August 10th 04 05:07 AM
Question: DP altitude vs MCA/MEA Doug Easton Instrument Flight Rules 7 April 7th 04 03:29 AM
Question Charles S Home Built 4 April 5th 04 09:10 PM
Tecumseh Engine Mounting Question jlauer Home Built 7 November 16th 03 01:51 AM
Question about Question 4488 [email protected] Instrument Flight Rules 3 October 27th 03 01:26 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2025 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.