SAC ILS "ADF Required" Info

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

There's a feeder route from the VOR to EXECC. There's no need for ADF on
this approach, the note "ADF REQUIRED" is an error.


Steven, if you have any push with the FAA, any help getting this
notation removed would be very, very appreciated. This is causing
headaches for many pilots who don't have IFR GPSs (and of course most
of us put the ADF in the dumpster long ago). I was talking to a local
DE who used to be a big wig at the FSDO. He didn't even believe me
until I pulled out the charge. He said he was going to make some calls
to the FAA and thought perhaps he could help get this fixed as well.

-Robert

It has already been mentioned to the proceddures folks. They will "get
around to it when they can." AOPA has a lot more juice than Steve but
they are overwhelmed fighting user fees.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

Steven, if you have any push with the FAA, any help getting this
notation removed would be very, very appreciated. This is causing
headaches for many pilots who don't have IFR GPSs (and of course most
of us put the ADF in the dumpster long ago). I was talking to a local
DE who used to be a big wig at the FSDO. He didn't even believe me
until I pulled out the charge. He said he was going to make some calls
to the FAA and thought perhaps he could help get this fixed as well.


I have no push with the FAA. The TPP has an email address for notification
of charting errors on the inside front cover. I sent the following message:

I found an error on the SAC ILS or LOC RWY 2 SIAP chart. The note "ADF
REQUIRED" appears on the approach plate, but ADF is not required for
procedure entry or missed approach. Since this approach can be flown
without ADF or GPS in lieu of ADF the note is in error and must be removed.

I have no push with the FAA. The TPP has an email address for notification
of charting errors on the inside front cover. I sent the following message:

I found an error on the SAC ILS or LOC RWY 2 SIAP chart. The note "ADF
REQUIRED" appears on the approach plate, but ADF is not required for
procedure entry or missed approach. Since this approach can be flown
without ADF or GPS in lieu of ADF the note is in error and must be removed.

It would be interesting to hear the response.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
I have no push with the FAA. The TPP has an email address for notification
of charting errors on the inside front cover. I sent the following message:

I found an error on the SAC ILS or LOC RWY 2 SIAP chart. The note "ADF
REQUIRED" appears on the approach plate, but ADF is not required for
procedure entry or missed approach. Since this approach can be flown
without ADF or GPS in lieu of ADF the note is in error and must be removed.

It would be interesting to hear the response.


Here it is:

Steven,

After reviewing our records it appears that the "ADF Required" note
should be charted on ILS or LOC Rwy 2 SIAP. This ADF note was added on
the chart per TL06-09 CCP request effective 5/11/06. We would need a
revised procedure to remove the note. I have forwarded your question
onto AVN-100 Don Harmer. Hopefully, AVN-100 will evaluate your concern
and if necessary revise the current procedure.

Thank you for your concern

Paul Spadaro
NACO



And here is my reply:

Dear Mr. Spadaro,

I did not have a question, I wrote only to point out the error on the
chart. Can you tell me what is in your records that makes it appear
that the "ADF REQUIRED" note should be charted on the ILS or LOC RWY 2
SIAP? Can you tell me why this ADF note was added on the chart per
TL06-09 CCP request? Why would you need a revised procedure to remove
the note? Since this approach can be flown without ADF it would appear
the note should never have been added, unless "ADF REQUIRED" means
something other than "ADF is needed to fly this approach". Does it?

Have a nice day.

Steven P. McNicoll

It would be interesting to hear the response.

Here it is [along with my reply]:

Ah... bureaucracy in motion. Keep us posted.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
Jose wrote:

It would be interesting to hear the response.



Here it is:

Steven,

After reviewing our records it appears that the "ADF Required" note
should be charted on ILS or LOC Rwy 2 SIAP. This ADF note was added on
the chart per TL06-09 CCP request effective 5/11/06. We would need a
revised procedure to remove the note. I have forwarded your question
onto AVN-100 Don Harmer. Hopefully, AVN-100 will evaluate your concern
and if necessary revise the current procedure.

Thank you for your concern

Paul Spadaro
NACO



And here is my reply:

Dear Mr. Spadaro,

I did not have a question, I wrote only to point out the error on the
chart. Can you tell me what is in your records that makes it appear
that the "ADF REQUIRED" note should be charted on the ILS or LOC RWY 2
SIAP? Can you tell me why this ADF note was added on the chart per
TL06-09 CCP request? Why would you need a revised procedure to remove
the note? Since this approach can be flown without ADF it would appear
the note should never have been added, unless "ADF REQUIRED" means
something other than "ADF is needed to fly this approach". Does it?

Have a nice day.

Steven P. McNicoll


Mr Spadaro was explaining why he added the note; it was initiated by CCP
request (P-Notam). The P-NOTAM is a procedure amendment and was issued
by NFPG. NACO just charts what they are told to chart, as long as it
meets charting criteria. He didn't create the note, so he forwarded your
question to Don Harmer, who is a manager at NFPG/AVN. NFPG is the only
agency that can change the note, and it would have to be an amendment to
the procedure, either via another CCP or a full-blown amendment.
I'm sure Mr Harmer will review the procedure and determine if the note
is or is not required and take action to remove it or revise it if
necessary based on FAAO 8260.3 and 8260.19 requirements.

JPH

JPH wrote:

I'm sure Mr Harmer will review the procedure and determine if the note
is or is not required and take action to remove it or revise it if
necessary based on FAAO 8260.3 and 8260.19 requirements.


If he had done that last May the note would have never appeared on the
plate.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:


And here is my reply:

Dear Mr. Spadaro,

I did not have a question, I wrote only to point out the error on the
chart. Can you tell me what is in your records that makes it appear
that the "ADF REQUIRED" note should be charted on the ILS or LOC RWY 2
SIAP? Can you tell me why this ADF note was added on the chart per
TL06-09 CCP request? Why would you need a revised procedure to remove
the note? Since this approach can be flown without ADF it would appear
the note should never have been added, unless "ADF REQUIRED" means
something other than "ADF is needed to fly this approach". Does it?

Have a nice day.

Steven P. McNicoll

You are bugging the wrong entity. NACO does not make judgements about
chart notes. To them, and many others, it's a regulation.

AVN-100 is the source for this stuff. That is where you should be
sending your missives.

Sam Spade wrote:

You are bugging the wrong entity. NACO does not make judgements about
chart notes. To them, and many others, it's a regulation.

AVN-100 is the source for this stuff. That is where you should be
sending your missives.


On the inside cover of NACO charts is written:

FOR CHARTING ERRORS CONTACT:
National Aeronautical Charting Office, FAA
N/ACCI, SSMC-4, Sta. #2335
1305 East-West Highway
Silver Spring, MD 20910-3281
Telephone Toll-Free (800) 626-3677
Internet/E-Mail:


If the FAA wishes to have notice of charting errors sent to AVN-100
they should change the contact information published in the charts.
Until they do that I will continue to send them to NACO.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

Steven, if you have any push with the FAA, any help getting this
notation removed would be very, very appreciated. This is causing
headaches for many pilots who don't have IFR GPSs (and of course most
of us put the ADF in the dumpster long ago).


Check the dumpster. Perhaps there's one in there still. Put it in your
baggage compartment and go fly the approach.