Thoughts on crash/article in Soaring?

I do commend him for writing the article. I do not commend the main
message he gives.

1.) Conservative is not necessarily safe. Maybe not, but his high
drag approach is not conservative.

2.) His training was deficient. Maybe so, but not because they did
not give him all the possible unusual positional situations in which to
execute a landing.

Hey, I apologize if I was too harsh. I just could not fathom why
someone could not land on a 6,000 ft. runway in a perfectly functioning
sailplane...



jb92563 wrote:
I just dont see how anyone who is an accomplished secure in his skills
pilot, presumably, feels it necessary to further humilate and
unfortunate soul who has made a mistake.

C'mon folks, when your used to flying out of an airport with a 6000'
runway its quite possible that you might become used to "easy" landings
and forget the things that you were taught......practice is
important......anyone practice spin recoveries in the US lately?.

I'm sure there are people flying that do not know their left from their
right under certain circumstances........remember your flight training
days??? Yes...I know you did it to!!!!

Lighten up.....at least this man admits his mistake publicly and was
brave enough to allow unbridled criticism in an effort to learn
something......and he almost did quit soaring!!!!!!....and by now he
has most certainly become a better pilot because of his learning.

I hear even doctors make mistakes despite 8+ years of intensive
training.

My 2 cents

Ray

This really sounds like a back handed apology to me.

MS wrote:
Hey, I apologize if I was too harsh. I just could not fathom why
someone could not land on a 6,000 ft. runway in a perfectly functioning
sailplane...


MS is obviously enormously skilled, and blessed with good fortune. One
of the things I've learned in 26 years of aviation and flight testing
is this: It CAN happen to me. For a completely different form of
flying (power, taildragger), a fellow pilot wasn't making the grade. I
tried talking to him to try and make peace between the parties (I was
not the instructor nor the grading person). As I told him I care as a
friend, and didn't want him hurt or wrapping an airplane up in a ball,
he replied: "...I won't happen to me...I'm TOO safe." At that moment,
I knew I'd NEVER get in an airplane with him again.

MS, If I'm about to get in an airplane with you, please identify
yourself, so I can avoid jinxing your run of good luck.

Contrary to popular belief, Flight Test Pilots (and crews) aren't the
"cowboys" the movies make them out to be. The experienced ones have
seen comrades die, despite excellent skill, preparation and equipment.
They know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME. Yes MS, you too may one day find it
difficult to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway, especially when you
consider your initial aim point was about halfway down that 6,000 feet.
I know, trust, respect and admire Jim Skydell. He is a humble person,
and his service to soaring did not stop at being a pilot, director,
contributor: the man bore his soul to try and help others avoid
similar pain. You owe him much more than just an apology (a sincere
apology, with no strings, judgement or "attitude"). I would ride with
Jim any day of the week, month or year.

Flight Test Crews know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME, so when we do a risky test
(e.g., finding the edge of the envelope -- the first stall, the maximum
speed, maximum landing performance measurement), we study the
information from all those accidents that preceded us, try to learn the
pitfalls, factors, and things that could have prevented an accident (or
fatality). For example, the camera van, parked well off the side of
the runway, still was hit by the Lear Jet conducting landing
testing...I believe it blew a tire, went off the runway and found the
van... It's usually not one single thing, as they say.

Yeah, Flight Test is risky (some say soaring is...every landing is an
emergency landing?). So the flight test type is not a cowboy...he
tries to stack the deck in his favor, e.g., flying with wind limits
less than five knots (not practical for everyday soaring). And
wherever possible, flight testers rehearse what it looks like good, and
what it looks like bad (when things go wrong). Review what to do when
something doesn't work right (e.g., hard landing, the beginning of
flutter, a stall departure that may seem uncontrollable). So practice
more than one form of landing (including the high parasite
nibble/infestation approach).

One of the test pilots I admired most, one of the safest, kindest, most
knowledgable and experienced people I've had the privilege of working
with, was killed last year in a Decathalon accident. It CAN happen to
ME, and at his memorial service, 400 people from across the U.S. were
feeling the same thing: if it can happen to him, it can happen to me.
And I think in a subtle way, Jim Skydell is trying to change the
thinking of the average glider pilot. Thank you, Jim.

But maybe MS lives by the other aviation adage: "Any pilot who doesn't
think he's the best in the business is in the wrong business." Which
would mean _I_ am in the wrong business.

DEAL with it. I'm here to stay. And I'm very proud to fly in the same
skies as Skydell.

-Pete
#309

Well said. For some reason my post never made it through the electronic
maze. Your posting was more eloquent.
I do know Jim Skydell and would fly with him at anytime.
I also know his instructors. They have taught me a lot about soaring and
how to use all the tools at hand.
Thanks
Chuck Griswold

At 23:06 13 July 2006, Ms wrote:
I guess it's...
I often hear glider pilots....
I am an aviation safety counselor and....
I once had to counsel an ATP whot....
I wouldn't have the problem with th...
I see some of the same theme...
I can induce 1,000 ft per minute sink at 60kts...
We practice rope breaks at 200ft AGL...
We rarely use up more than 3,000 ft to come...


Interestingly enough...although anonymous, Ms is not
afraid to use the first person for his diatribe.

Well said 309, a person who believes he never makes
a mistake will never ever get to correct the mistakes
he makes. A person who openly admits he can make a
mistake is safe, he is always looking for ways to overcome
his fallibility. He also shows considerable courage
if he shares his mistake with others.

It is a shame that the majority of pilots outside the
USA will never get to read the article that started
this, sounds like there is a lesson that we could all
learn from it.

At 06:12 14 July 2006, 309 wrote:
This really sounds like a back handed apology to me.

MS wrote:
Hey, I apologize if I was too harsh. I just could
not fathom why
someone could not land on a 6,000 ft. runway in a
perfectly functioning
sailplane...


MS is obviously enormously skilled, and blessed with
good fortune. One
of the things I've learned in 26 years of aviation
and flight testing
is this: It CAN happen to me. For a completely different
form of
flying (power, taildragger), a fellow pilot wasn't
making the grade. I
tried talking to him to try and make peace between
the parties (I was
not the instructor nor the grading person). As I told
him I care as a
friend, and didn't want him hurt or wrapping an airplane
up in a ball,
he replied: '...I won't happen to me...I'm TOO safe.'
At that moment,
I knew I'd NEVER get in an airplane with him again.

MS, If I'm about to get in an airplane with you, please
identify
yourself, so I can avoid jinxing your run of good luck.

Contrary to popular belief, Flight Test Pilots (and
crews) aren't the
'cowboys' the movies make them out to be. The experienced
ones have
seen comrades die, despite excellent skill, preparation
and equipment.
They know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME. Yes MS, you too may
one day find it
difficult to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway,
especially when you
consider your initial aim point was about halfway down
that 6,000 feet.
I know, trust, respect and admire Jim Skydell. He
is a humble person,
and his service to soaring did not stop at being a
pilot, director,
contributor: the man bore his soul to try and help
others avoid
similar pain. You owe him much more than just an apology
(a sincere
apology, with no strings, judgement or 'attitude').
I would ride with
Jim any day of the week, month or year.

Flight Test Crews know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME, so when
we do a risky test
(e.g., finding the edge of the envelope -- the first
stall, the maximum
speed, maximum landing performance measurement), we
study the
information from all those accidents that preceded
us, try to learn the
pitfalls, factors, and things that could have prevented
an accident (or
fatality). For example, the camera van, parked well
off the side of
the runway, still was hit by the Lear Jet conducting
landing
testing...I believe it blew a tire, went off the runway
and found the
van... It's usually not one single thing, as they
say.

Yeah, Flight Test is risky (some say soaring is...every
landing is an
emergency landing?). So the flight test type is not
a cowboy...he
tries to stack the deck in his favor, e.g., flying
with wind limits
less than five knots (not practical for everyday soaring).
And
wherever possible, flight testers rehearse what it
looks like good, and
what it looks like bad (when things go wrong). Review
what to do when
something doesn't work right (e.g., hard landing, the
beginning of
flutter, a stall departure that may seem uncontrollable).
So practice
more than one form of landing (including the high parasite
nibble/infestation approach).

One of the test pilots I admired most, one of the safest,
kindest, most
knowledgable and experienced people I've had the privilege
of working
with, was killed last year in a Decathalon accident.
It CAN happen to
ME, and at his memorial service, 400 people from across
the U.S. were
feeling the same thing: if it can happen to him, it
can happen to me.
And I think in a subtle way, Jim Skydell is trying
to change the
thinking of the average glider pilot. Thank you, Jim.

But maybe MS lives by the other aviation adage: 'Any
pilot who doesn't
think he's the best in the business is in the wrong
business.' Which
would mean _I_ am in the wrong business.

DEAL with it. I'm here to stay. And I'm very proud
to fly in the same
skies as Skydell.

-Pete
#309

Never said I was perfect or could not make mistakes or it won't happen
to me. However, If I every have a problem making a 6,000 foot runway
in a glider or taildragger ( without mechanical problems), I'll give
up the sport without blaming my instructional program.......

M.S.

Also this is NOT personal. I do not know Mr. Skydell.

Don Johnstone wrote:
Well said 309, a person who believes he never makes
a mistake will never ever get to correct the mistakes
he makes. A person who openly admits he can make a
mistake is safe, he is always looking for ways to overcome
his fallibility. He also shows considerable courage
if he shares his mistake with others.

It is a shame that the majority of pilots outside the
USA will never get to read the article that started
this, sounds like there is a lesson that we could all
learn from it.

At 06:12 14 July 2006, 309 wrote:
This really sounds like a back handed apology to me.

MS wrote:
Hey, I apologize if I was too harsh. I just could
not fathom why
someone could not land on a 6,000 ft. runway in a
perfectly functioning
sailplane...


MS is obviously enormously skilled, and blessed with
good fortune. One
of the things I've learned in 26 years of aviation
and flight testing
is this: It CAN happen to me. For a completely different
form of
flying (power, taildragger), a fellow pilot wasn't
making the grade. I
tried talking to him to try and make peace between
the parties (I was
not the instructor nor the grading person). As I told
him I care as a
friend, and didn't want him hurt or wrapping an airplane
up in a ball,
he replied: '...I won't happen to me...I'm TOO safe.'
At that moment,
I knew I'd NEVER get in an airplane with him again.

MS, If I'm about to get in an airplane with you, please
identify
yourself, so I can avoid jinxing your run of good luck.

Contrary to popular belief, Flight Test Pilots (and
crews) aren't the
'cowboys' the movies make them out to be. The experienced
ones have
seen comrades die, despite excellent skill, preparation
and equipment.
They know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME. Yes MS, you too may
one day find it
difficult to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway,
especially when you
consider your initial aim point was about halfway down
that 6,000 feet.
I know, trust, respect and admire Jim Skydell. He
is a humble person,
and his service to soaring did not stop at being a
pilot, director,
contributor: the man bore his soul to try and help
others avoid
similar pain. You owe him much more than just an apology
(a sincere
apology, with no strings, judgement or 'attitude').
I would ride with
Jim any day of the week, month or year.

Flight Test Crews know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME, so when
we do a risky test
(e.g., finding the edge of the envelope -- the first
stall, the maximum
speed, maximum landing performance measurement), we
study the
information from all those accidents that preceded
us, try to learn the
pitfalls, factors, and things that could have prevented
an accident (or
fatality). For example, the camera van, parked well
off the side of
the runway, still was hit by the Lear Jet conducting
landing
testing...I believe it blew a tire, went off the runway
and found the
van... It's usually not one single thing, as they
say.

Yeah, Flight Test is risky (some say soaring is...every
landing is an
emergency landing?). So the flight test type is not
a cowboy...he
tries to stack the deck in his favor, e.g., flying
with wind limits
less than five knots (not practical for everyday soaring).
And
wherever possible, flight testers rehearse what it
looks like good, and
what it looks like bad (when things go wrong). Review
what to do when
something doesn't work right (e.g., hard landing, the
beginning of
flutter, a stall departure that may seem uncontrollable).
So practice
more than one form of landing (including the high parasite
nibble/infestation approach).

One of the test pilots I admired most, one of the safest,
kindest, most
knowledgable and experienced people I've had the privilege
of working
with, was killed last year in a Decathalon accident.
It CAN happen to
ME, and at his memorial service, 400 people from across
the U.S. were
feeling the same thing: if it can happen to him, it
can happen to me.
And I think in a subtle way, Jim Skydell is trying
to change the
thinking of the average glider pilot. Thank you, Jim.

But maybe MS lives by the other aviation adage: 'Any
pilot who doesn't
think he's the best in the business is in the wrong
business.' Which
would mean _I_ am in the wrong business.

DEAL with it. I'm here to stay. And I'm very proud
to fly in the same
skies as Skydell.

-Pete
#309

My God I actually accused Jim of starting the string.
I just couldn't believe that anyone could be as dense
as you seem to be. Any way I've lost interest. Bye
Bye.
Chuck

At 12:54 15 July 2006, Ms wrote:
Never said I was perfect or could not make mistakes
or it won't happen
to me. However, If I every have a problem making
a 6,000 foot runway
in a glider or taildragger ( without mechanical problems),
I'll give
up the sport without blaming my instructional program.......

M.S.

Also this is NOT personal. I do not know Mr. Skydell.

Speaking of getting personal. You know Mr. S and have defended him for
personal reasons and have lowered yourself to insulting others.

Two distinct type of human error accidents dear boy.
Error of skill where a pilot is faced with a situation,
for which he has not recieved training, for which his
training has not been adequate or is outside his expected
level of skill, and fails to deal with it. Can be a
combination of Organisation fault, poor supervision
and lack of experience, perm any number from a multitude.
A error of judgement is where the pilot has the necessary
skills and training, knows what to do but fails to
sucessfully do it.

It may be that you would fall into the second category,
in fact given what you say, you do and your response
is therefore the best thing you could do. Not everyone
else does fall into that category and I do not have
sufficient information, I have not been able to read
the article, to say which category Mr Skydell falls
into. From what has been said on this forum probably
the first. He has learned and will be a far better
pilot for it, certainly better than you as you appear
to think you are either incapable of making a mistake,
or that if you make a mistake you will be so ashamed
that you will have to give up the sport. That makes
you very dangerous indeed.



12:54 15 July 2006, Ms wrote:
Never said I was perfect or could not make mistakes
or it won't happen
to me. However, If I every have a problem making
a 6,000 foot runway
in a glider or taildragger ( without mechanical problems),
I'll give
up the sport without blaming my instructional program.......

M.S.

Also this is NOT personal. I do not know Mr. Skydell.

Don Johnstone wrote:
Well said 309, a person who believes he never makes
a mistake will never ever get to correct the mistakes
he makes. A person who openly admits he can make a
mistake is safe, he is always looking for ways to
overcome
his fallibility. He also shows considerable courage
if he shares his mistake with others.

It is a shame that the majority of pilots outside
the
USA will never get to read the article that started
this, sounds like there is a lesson that we could
all
learn from it.

At 06:12 14 July 2006, 309 wrote:
This really sounds like a back handed apology to me.

MS wrote:
Hey, I apologize if I was too harsh. I just could
not fathom why
someone could not land on a 6,000 ft. runway in a
perfectly functioning
sailplane...


MS is obviously enormously skilled, and blessed with
good fortune. One
of the things I've learned in 26 years of aviation
and flight testing
is this: It CAN happen to me. For a completely different
form of
flying (power, taildragger), a fellow pilot wasn't
making the grade. I
tried talking to him to try and make peace between
the parties (I was
not the instructor nor the grading person). As I
told
him I care as a
friend, and didn't want him hurt or wrapping an airplane
up in a ball,
he replied: '...I won't happen to me...I'm TOO safe.'
At that moment,
I knew I'd NEVER get in an airplane with him again.

MS, If I'm about to get in an airplane with you, please
identify
yourself, so I can avoid jinxing your run of good
luck.

Contrary to popular belief, Flight Test Pilots (and
crews) aren't the
'cowboys' the movies make them out to be. The experienced
ones have
seen comrades die, despite excellent skill, preparation
and equipment.
They know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME. Yes MS, you too may
one day find it
difficult to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway,
especially when you
consider your initial aim point was about halfway
down
that 6,000 feet.
I know, trust, respect and admire Jim Skydell. He
is a humble person,
and his service to soaring did not stop at being a
pilot, director,
contributor: the man bore his soul to try and help
others avoid
similar pain. You owe him much more than just an
apology
(a sincere
apology, with no strings, judgement or 'attitude').
I would ride with
Jim any day of the week, month or year.

Flight Test Crews know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME, so when
we do a risky test
(e.g., finding the edge of the envelope -- the first
stall, the maximum
speed, maximum landing performance measurement), we
study the
information from all those accidents that preceded
us, try to learn the
pitfalls, factors, and things that could have prevented
an accident (or
fatality). For example, the camera van, parked well
off the side of
the runway, still was hit by the Lear Jet conducting
landing
testing...I believe it blew a tire, went off the runway
and found the
van... It's usually not one single thing, as they
say.

Yeah, Flight Test is risky (some say soaring is...every
landing is an
emergency landing?). So the flight test type is not
a cowboy...he
tries to stack the deck in his favor, e.g., flying
with wind limits
less than five knots (not practical for everyday soaring).
And
wherever possible, flight testers rehearse what it
looks like good, and
what it looks like bad (when things go wrong). Review
what to do when
something doesn't work right (e.g., hard landing,
the
beginning of
flutter, a stall departure that may seem uncontrollable).
So practice
more than one form of landing (including the high
parasite
nibble/infestation approach).

One of the test pilots I admired most, one of the
safest,
kindest, most
knowledgable and experienced people I've had the privilege
of working
with, was killed last year in a Decathalon accident.
It CAN happen to
ME, and at his memorial service, 400 people from across
the U.S. were
feeling the same thing: if it can happen to him,
it
can happen to me.
And I think in a subtle way, Jim Skydell is trying
to change the
thinking of the average glider pilot. Thank you,
Jim.

But maybe MS lives by the other aviation adage: 'Any
pilot who doesn't
think he's the best in the business is in the wrong
business.' Which
would mean _I_ am in the wrong business.

DEAL with it. I'm here to stay. And I'm very proud
to fly in the same
skies as Skydell.

-Pete
#309

Never said I was perfect. I make mistakes and learn lessons.
However, if I made such a huge mistake that I thought it exposed a
weakness ( such as freezing up) and it would be safer to quit the
sport, I would. I don't think that makes me dangerous dear boy. I
think that makes me practical.


Don Johnstone wrote:
Two distinct type of human error accidents dear boy.
Error of skill where a pilot is faced with a situation,
for which he has not recieved training, for which his
training has not been adequate or is outside his expected
level of skill, and fails to deal with it. Can be a
combination of Organisation fault, poor supervision
and lack of experience, perm any number from a multitude.
A error of judgement is where the pilot has the necessary
skills and training, knows what to do but fails to
sucessfully do it.

It may be that you would fall into the second category,
in fact given what you say, you do and your response
is therefore the best thing you could do. Not everyone
else does fall into that category and I do not have
sufficient information, I have not been able to read
the article, to say which category Mr Skydell falls
into. From what has been said on this forum probably
the first. He has learned and will be a far better
pilot for it, certainly better than you as you appear
to think you are either incapable of making a mistake,
or that if you make a mistake you will be so ashamed
that you will have to give up the sport. That makes
you very dangerous indeed.



12:54 15 July 2006, Ms wrote:
Never said I was perfect or could not make mistakes
or it won't happen
to me. However, If I every have a problem making
a 6,000 foot runway
in a glider or taildragger ( without mechanical problems),
I'll give
up the sport without blaming my instructional program.......

M.S.

Also this is NOT personal. I do not know Mr. Skydell.

Don Johnstone wrote:
Well said 309, a person who believes he never makes
a mistake will never ever get to correct the mistakes
he makes. A person who openly admits he can make a
mistake is safe, he is always looking for ways to
overcome
his fallibility. He also shows considerable courage
if he shares his mistake with others.

It is a shame that the majority of pilots outside
the
USA will never get to read the article that started
this, sounds like there is a lesson that we could
all
learn from it.

At 06:12 14 July 2006, 309 wrote:
This really sounds like a back handed apology to me.

MS wrote:
Hey, I apologize if I was too harsh. I just could
not fathom why
someone could not land on a 6,000 ft. runway in a
perfectly functioning
sailplane...


MS is obviously enormously skilled, and blessed with
good fortune. One
of the things I've learned in 26 years of aviation
and flight testing
is this: It CAN happen to me. For a completely different
form of
flying (power, taildragger), a fellow pilot wasn't
making the grade. I
tried talking to him to try and make peace between
the parties (I was
not the instructor nor the grading person). As I
told
him I care as a
friend, and didn't want him hurt or wrapping an airplane
up in a ball,
he replied: '...I won't happen to me...I'm TOO safe.'
At that moment,
I knew I'd NEVER get in an airplane with him again.

MS, If I'm about to get in an airplane with you, please
identify
yourself, so I can avoid jinxing your run of good
luck.

Contrary to popular belief, Flight Test Pilots (and
crews) aren't the
'cowboys' the movies make them out to be. The experienced
ones have
seen comrades die, despite excellent skill, preparation
and equipment.
They know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME. Yes MS, you too may
one day find it
difficult to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway,
especially when you
consider your initial aim point was about halfway
down
that 6,000 feet.
I know, trust, respect and admire Jim Skydell. He
is a humble person,
and his service to soaring did not stop at being a
pilot, director,
contributor: the man bore his soul to try and help
others avoid
similar pain. You owe him much more than just an
apology
(a sincere
apology, with no strings, judgement or 'attitude').
I would ride with
Jim any day of the week, month or year.

Flight Test Crews know IT CAN HAPPEN TO ME, so when
we do a risky test
(e.g., finding the edge of the envelope -- the first
stall, the maximum
speed, maximum landing performance measurement), we
study the
information from all those accidents that preceded
us, try to learn the
pitfalls, factors, and things that could have prevented
an accident (or
fatality). For example, the camera van, parked well
off the side of
the runway, still was hit by the Lear Jet conducting
landing
testing...I believe it blew a tire, went off the runway
and found the
van... It's usually not one single thing, as they
say.

Yeah, Flight Test is risky (some say soaring is...every
landing is an
emergency landing?). So the flight test type is not
a cowboy...he
tries to stack the deck in his favor, e.g., flying
with wind limits
less than five knots (not practical for everyday soaring).
And
wherever possible, flight testers rehearse what it
looks like good, and
what it looks like bad (when things go wrong). Review
what to do when
something doesn't work right (e.g., hard landing,
the
beginning of
flutter, a stall departure that may seem uncontrollable).
So practice
more than one form of landing (including the high
parasite
nibble/infestation approach).

One of the test pilots I admired most, one of the
safest,
kindest, most
knowledgable and experienced people I've had the privilege
of working
with, was killed last year in a Decathalon accident.
It CAN happen to
ME, and at his memorial service, 400 people from across
the U.S. were
feeling the same thing: if it can happen to him,
it
can happen to me.
And I think in a subtle way, Jim Skydell is trying
to change the
thinking of the average glider pilot. Thank you,
Jim.

But maybe MS lives by the other aviation adage: 'Any
pilot who doesn't
think he's the best in the business is in the wrong
business.' Which
would mean _I_ am in the wrong business.

DEAL with it. I'm here to stay. And I'm very proud
to fly in the same
skies as Skydell.

-Pete
#309