Scared of mid-airs

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 05:07:37 GMT, 588 wrote in
::

Orval al wrote:
In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

(snip)
Or, conversely the numbers of deaths of military pilots due to
mid-airs with GA pilots operating cluelessly in restricted, warning,
prohibited airspace, MOAs and oil burner routes. It's a two-edged
sword, Larry.

IIRC, Ed, only in prohibited airspace can a mil pilot not expect to
encounter a civil VFR.

That is what we have restricted areas for -- not to be done in congested
airspace.


Which is it, Orv?


I'm sure you are intelligent enough to parse Orval's meaning; you're
just being deliberately obtuse, right?

GA aircraft don't enter Prohibited Areas, thus they aren't found
there. Restricted areas were created for hazardous military
operations; terminal airspace is congested and inappropriate for
hazardous military operations.

If I can understand his meaning, surely someone who possesses your
towering intellect should have no trouble comprehending his meaning.

In article ,
588 wrote:

Orval al wrote:
In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

(snip)
Or, conversely the numbers of deaths of military pilots due to
mid-airs with GA pilots operating cluelessly in restricted, warning,
prohibited airspace, MOAs and oil burner routes. It's a two-edged
sword, Larry.

IIRC, Ed, only in prohibited airspace can a mil pilot not expect to
encounter a civil VFR.

That is what we have restricted areas for -- not to be done in congested
airspace.


Which is it, Orv?


Both restricted and prohibited airspace are "sterile." Actually,
military aircraft also should not be in *prohibited* airspace, OTW, it
is *restricted* airspace.

MOAs, Warning areas and Oil Burner routes are joint use, so we can
expect anybody to be there legally.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 17:39:09 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

In article ,
588 wrote:

Orval al wrote:
In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

(snip)
Or, conversely the numbers of deaths of military pilots due to
mid-airs with GA pilots operating cluelessly in restricted, warning,
prohibited airspace, MOAs and oil burner routes. It's a two-edged
sword, Larry.

IIRC, Ed, only in prohibited airspace can a mil pilot not expect to
encounter a civil VFR.

That is what we have restricted areas for -- not to be done in congested
airspace.


Which is it, Orv?


Both restricted and prohibited airspace are "sterile." Actually,
military aircraft also should not be in *prohibited* airspace, OTW, it
is *restricted* airspace.

MOAs, Warning areas and Oil Burner routes are joint use, so we can
expect anybody to be there legally.

MOAs typically are at altitudes that place them in positive control
airspace. ATC will not provide clearance for GA aircraft through a MOA
that is in use by the military. MOAs that include airspace below
positive control can have VFR aircraft in transit. We used to get them
all the time in the Beak and Talon MOAs east of Holloman.

However, any airspace that permits VFR flight can have aircraft
transitting without ATC clearance in VMC. Aircraft operating under VFR
in VMC are responsible for their own clearance of their flight route.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On 07/31/06 11:08, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 17:39:09 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

In article ,
588 wrote:

Orval al wrote:
In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

(snip)
Or, conversely the numbers of deaths of military pilots due to
mid-airs with GA pilots operating cluelessly in restricted, warning,
prohibited airspace, MOAs and oil burner routes. It's a two-edged
sword, Larry.

IIRC, Ed, only in prohibited airspace can a mil pilot not expect to
encounter a civil VFR.

That is what we have restricted areas for -- not to be done in congested
airspace.


Which is it, Orv?


Both restricted and prohibited airspace are "sterile." Actually,
military aircraft also should not be in *prohibited* airspace, OTW, it
is *restricted* airspace.

MOAs, Warning areas and Oil Burner routes are joint use, so we can
expect anybody to be there legally.

MOAs typically are at altitudes that place them in positive control
airspace. ATC will not provide clearance for GA aircraft through a MOA
that is in use by the military. MOAs that include airspace below
positive control can have VFR aircraft in transit. We used to get them
all the time in the Beak and Talon MOAs east of Holloman.

However, any airspace that permits VFR flight can have aircraft
transitting without ATC clearance in VMC. Aircraft operating under VFR
in VMC are responsible for their own clearance of their flight route.


Actually, *all* aircraft flying in VMC are responsible for "See and Avoid".
This includes aircraft operating under IFR.




Ed Rasimus


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 12:05:18 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 07/31/06 11:08, Ed Rasimus wrote:

However, any airspace that permits VFR flight can have aircraft
transitting without ATC clearance in VMC. Aircraft operating under VFR
in VMC are responsible for their own clearance of their flight route.


Actually, *all* aircraft flying in VMC are responsible for "See and Avoid".
This includes aircraft operating under IFR.


Very true. The caution we used to spend a lot of time impressing on
UPT students in the USAF was the idea that just because you are on an
IFR clearance is NO GUARANTEE that you are going to be provided safe
separation from traffic. Your clearance only clears you from other IFR
aircraft and then only when in controlled airspace. The VFR guy can
run into you at his own whim.

But, the point that we are beating here is that see-and-avoid is the
basic responsibility of all players all of the time. High speed
aircraft have high agility, low speed aircraft have lots of time to
look, but regardless of your speed you keep the front of your airplane
cleared using all of the tools available to you.

I had to dig up this old RAF Air Marshall quote: "Aviation in itself
is not inherently dangerous but like the sea, is terribly unforgiving
of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."

We had it on the wall in pilot training years ago. I've also seen it
in 'chute shops over the door where you head out to the airplanes. And
in USAF Flying Safety Offices.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:49:59 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
::

But, the point that we are beating here is that see-and-avoid is the
basic responsibility of all players all of the time.

That is true with the obvious exception of operations in IMC.

High speed aircraft have high agility, low speed aircraft have lots of time to
look,

Low-speed aircraft have the same amount of time to spot a high-speed
aircraft before colliding with it as the high-speed aircraft has: the
amount of time it takes for the two aircraft to reach each other.
Pilots of high-speed aircraft must look much farther ahead than pilots
of low-speed aircraft..

but regardless of your speed you keep the front of your airplane
cleared using all of the tools available to you.

High-speed aircraft need only scan a much smaller angle of airspace in
front of them than slow speed aircraft.

Ed Rasimus wrote:

[stuff snipped]


MOAs typically are at altitudes that place them in positive control
airspace. ATC will not provide clearance for GA aircraft through a MOA
that is in use by the military.


GA IFR or GA VFR?

AIM 3-4-5:

"a. MOAs consist of airspace of defined vertical and lateral limits
established for the purpose of separating certain military training
activities from IFR traffic. Whenever a MOA is being used,
nonparticipating IFR traffic may be cleared through a MOA if IFR
separation can be provided by ATC. Otherwise, ATC will reroute or
restrict nonparticipating IFR traffic."

"c. Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while
flying within a MOA when military activity is being conducted. The
activity status (active/inactive) of MOAs may change frequently.
Therefore, pilots should contact any FSS within 100 miles of the area
to obtain accurate real-time information concerning the MOA hours of
operation. Prior to entering an active MOA, pilots should contact the
controlling agency for traffic advisories."

FAA 7400.8M subpart B:

"A Military Operations Area (MOA) is airspace established outside
positive control area
to separate/segragate certain nonhazardous military activities from IFR
traffic and to identify for VFR traffic where these activities are
conducted."

[rest snipped]

John Hairell )

On 31 Jul 2006 13:41:45 -0700, "
wrote:


Ed Rasimus wrote:

[stuff snipped]


MOAs typically are at altitudes that place them in positive control
airspace. ATC will not provide clearance for GA aircraft through a MOA
that is in use by the military.


GA IFR or GA VFR?

AIM 3-4-5:

"a. MOAs consist of airspace of defined vertical and lateral limits
established for the purpose of separating certain military training
activities from IFR traffic. Whenever a MOA is being used,
nonparticipating IFR traffic may be cleared through a MOA if IFR
separation can be provided by ATC. Otherwise, ATC will reroute or
restrict nonparticipating IFR traffic."

Many, if not most MOAs are involved with very random traffic--e.g. BFM
maneuvering for example. The result is that IFR traffic is not cleared
through when the MOA is active. If the MOA is vacated (still active
usually) between flights scheduled, ATC "might" clear traffic through.
VFR traffic is possible (but ill-advised) below positive control
airspace.

Some MOAs in which activities like air refueling or intercept practice
is conducted would allow for IFR GA aircraft transit, but typically
(at least in my experience) ATC was reluctant to get involved.

"c. Pilots operating under VFR should exercise extreme caution while
flying within a MOA when military activity is being conducted. The
activity status (active/inactive) of MOAs may change frequently.
Therefore, pilots should contact any FSS within 100 miles of the area
to obtain accurate real-time information concerning the MOA hours of
operation. Prior to entering an active MOA, pilots should contact the
controlling agency for traffic advisories."

FAA 7400.8M subpart B:

"A Military Operations Area (MOA) is airspace established outside
positive control area
to separate/segragate certain nonhazardous military activities from IFR
traffic and to identify for VFR traffic where these activities are
conducted."

[rest snipped]

John Hairell )

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

MOAs typically are at altitudes that place them in positive control
airspace. ATC will not provide clearance for GA aircraft through a MOA
that is in use by the military. MOAs that include airspace below
positive control can have VFR aircraft in transit. We used to get them
all the time in the Beak and Talon MOAs east of Holloman.


MOAs are never in positive control airspace. Many MOAs have an ATCAA
directly above them of the same name and lateral limits.

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:13:08 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

MOAs typically are at altitudes that place them in positive control
airspace. ATC will not provide clearance for GA aircraft through a MOA
that is in use by the military. MOAs that include airspace below
positive control can have VFR aircraft in transit. We used to get them
all the time in the Beak and Talon MOAs east of Holloman.


MOAs are never in positive control airspace. Many MOAs have an ATCAA
directly above them of the same name and lateral limits.

Has that been a recent change? The airspace we used at Holloman for
most of the AT-38 training was to the East. The restricted airspace
over White Sands was used mostly by the 49th wing F-15s as it was
supersonic and ran surface to very high altitudes. It was used for
both flight and missile testing including Surface-to-air (ie Patriot)
and air-to-air (against Firebee variants and QF aircraft).

To the East we had the Beaks (A,B and C) and Talons (North, East and
West). They were MOAs and extended from 10,000 AGl to FL 450--which
put them both below and within APC (which in those days commenced at
FL180). We routinely had VFR GA traffic particularly in the Ruidoso
Airport area passing under the Beaks, but only rare exceptions of
folks exercising their VFR transit rights. ATC radar coverage, because
of high terrain on several sides, was intermittent at lower altitudes,
but occasionally ABQ Center would give an advisory of VFR traffic and
would always provide notice of IFR traffic along the bordering
airways. We usually had the traffic before ATC said anything.

Probably the ATCAA is the explanation. We just considered it MOA.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com