Made in the USA

"Lou" wrote in message
oups.com...
You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
Eroupe, but it was my understanding that LSA was to lower the cost and
requirements of flying. This way USA would increase their pilot
community instead of the current decrease. Now I will agree with you
that Americans need to develop a good engine to compete rather than the
dissappointing choices we have now. Really, how hard can this be for
any of the current engine (not limited to aviation) manufacturer's to
figure out. Honda was smart enough to see that an airplane engine alone
was bringing in more money than some of thier cars.
As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
for under $120,000.
If this is the case I don't think you will see alot of 152's being
replaced with this airplane. They won't be targeting that group so
their advertising points will not be towards this group. After all if
you can get a plane with the same qualities as a Cessna for $20.000 and
the flight school needs five planes for replacement, It would be like a
buy 5 get one free sale.


I thought flight schools bought new planes, wore them out, then sold them
for $20K?

I don't think it is really fair comparing new plane to used planes anymore
than it is comparing new cars to used cars. What, you just bought a new
Ram pickup for $32K when you could have bought a used one with 150K miles on
it for $10K?

Paul Tomblin wrote:

snip

All those flight schools looking to replace their
aging 150s would be a sure bet to prefer a new Cessna.


Sales are currently limited by production but the Jabiru 160C is available
as a certified (ICAO not LSA) aircraft for under AUD 75,000 (USD 50k). ie a
new C150 equivalent for the price of a 25yo aircraft and rebuilt for xth
time engine (or a bad 100 hourly).

US price would have to be more with the liability issues

--

regards

jc

LEGAL - I don't believe what I wrote and neither should you. Sobriety and/or
sanity of the author is not guaranteed

EMAIL - and are not valid email
addresses. news2x at perentie is valid for a while.

Earlier, Lou wrote:

...
Aircraft should be one thing my country could
excel at. We have everything needed,
materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
assembled here.

The very most expensive part of manufacturing most things is hourly
wages. So in parts of the globe where hourly wages are high, it's
expensive to make things unless your manufacturing processes are
extremely effecient and effective. Sure, the big Japanese car makers
can run car plants in the US with US workers. But observe that their
manufacturing processes are extremely, extremely effecient. It's
nothing at all like making the sort of things that sell at the low unit
numbers of aircraft and aviation products. Almost everybody's got a
car, but almost nobody owns an airplane.

Further, observe that a great deal of commercial aircraft inspection,
repair, modification, and maintenance has already been outsourced. Now
a lot of it is done in places like South America, Asia, and Eastern
Europe - places that have dedicated specialists combined with low
hourly wages. Yes, we've got everything we need to excel at aircraft
and aviation. But plenty of other countries do too, and many of them
have wage and class structures that makes the most expensive part of it
cheaper.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

OK,,Want to know what I think about the L.S.A. part in U.S., look and think
about this,,250 pounds of aluminum cost , say two dollars a foot,,drill a
hole in each end of a length of tubing and suddenly it's an airplane part
and cost 50 times the purchase price. Labor is not the total cost of the
rise in price but human greed on the part of the manufacturer..Is anybody
really worth one million dollars a month ON RETIREMENT??? Americans are
spoiled rotten and totally consumed with their own greed . If they have one
good thought about something,instead of sharing, they want to be paid the
rest of their lives for it. We deserve to be destroyed as Sodom and Gomorra
..Even Christ drew a line in the sand and dared others to cross it. We have
no line except each our own and it s drawn in different places as the limit
of our morality .And some of us have none.!!!!
"Lou" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, just spent a week at Oshgosh like quite a few of you and, although
I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is it
really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell
products at a reasonable price and still make a living? Aircraft should
be one thing my country could excel at. We have everything needed,
materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
assembled here.
I'm not talking about a product that cost more to make than to just
buy a cheap import. Light Sport planes have gone through the roof in
just a matter of a couple of years. You can't convince me that there
isn't a plane that can be designed and manufactured for a competitve
price. It's not that I am against any other country making a buck here.
I'm just very dissapointed in Americans not even trying. What happened
here?
Just a thought.
Lou

...................and just when I thought I was going to have an
intelligent conversation.
Lou

Lou wrote:
Ok, just spent a week at Oshgosh like quite a few of you and, although
I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is it
really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell
products at a reasonable price and still make a living? Aircraft should
be one thing my country could excel at. We have everything needed,
materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
assembled here.
I'm not talking about a product that cost more to make than to just
buy a cheap import. Light Sport planes have gone through the roof in
just a matter of a couple of years. You can't convince me that there
isn't a plane that can be designed and manufactured for a competitve
price. It's not that I am against any other country making a buck here.
I'm just very dissapointed in Americans not even trying. What happened
here?


My theory: An excess of lawsuits.

Current aircraft and aircraft parts are so expensive because
manufacturers are afraid of being sued should anything happen to the
aircraft. IIRC, some legal decisions made 30-some-odd years ago set the
precedent that the manufacturer could be held liable in an accident,
regardless of the aircraft's (or part's) age, and often regardless of
the actual cause. Some aircraft manufacturers went out of business
because they didn't want to eventually end up being sued.

I don't know if or how foreign companies can be affected by these
lawsuits... but I would think that the sue-happy epidemic isn't as
widespread overseas. Therefore, combined with lower labor costs, they
can develop the aircraft cheaper, start them flying over there, and
recoup development costs first. Gaining US certification later would be
easier and cheaper, and therefore they can continue to offer them at a
lower price.



Additionally, getting something certified is a very expensive process,
and therefore more is charged to offset that cost. Avionics make an
interesting comparison. Say you have two autopilots with the same
capabilities. One is certified, the other is not (ie, intended for
homebuilts, which don't need the certification). The certified one will
almost certainly be several thousand dollars more. They might be from
the same manufacturer, and might even be the same product in a different
package. And since the pool of certified products is much smaller, they
can charge even more (supply/demand).

Bear in mind, too, that certified aircraft also need an A&P to do any
maintenance beyond something like changing the oil. Those guys cost
money, too. Didn't Canada create a category (called "owner maintained"
or something like that) where the owner is allowed to perform all
maintenance on an aircraft, but by doing so it becomes closer to the
experimental category (no passengers for hire, etc.) and can never
return to normal certified status?

There are many experienced and informed people on this list... But I do
see plaintive pleadings from some with lessor amounts of information at
their disposal... For those who don't understand why we (USA) can't
market a 'cheap' LSA, follow me through... Your lack of business
experience shows... The cost of labor is miniscule compared to the
regulatory costs...

So you want to manufacture the WHiz Bang 4, that you drew up in your
spare time at your real job...
OK, ya gotta have a shop to work in... So go lease a factory
building... BANG, ya got overhead! And you have to feed it every month,
even while you are still trying to put the business together...

Now the building lessor will insist that you carry loss insurance in
case you destroy his building, and he will insist on public liability
insurance in case what you do in the building gets him sued.. So poof,
you got two monthly insurance payments and you haven't even unrolled
the drawings for your airplane...

Now ya gotta buy some equipment - MIG, saws, brakes, compressor, air
tools, steel, aluminum, and mucho more... Do you have the dough? If
not, ya gotta get a loan... Want a loan? The bank manager informs you
that he needs to see your business plan... Don't have one? Go to the
library and do some research... Finally, after 6 to 12 months of
scrambling you have a business plan that convinces the bank to take a
chance on you, but only for 25% of what you wanted...

OK, now ya got this far, you need to hire some employees... So ya shop
around the neighbors, local bar, the coffee shop, etc... What you will
find is that for all the folks leaning on their elbows and complaining
they can't get a job, 98% will disappear when actually offered a job...
2/3 of those left will fail the drug test...
Drug test???
Yup, your insurer for 'Workmans Comp' will insist on it...
Oh yeah, did I mention that you will need Workmans Comp insurance...
Another monthly payment, badda boom, badda bing... Having fun yet?

Anyway, you have persevered up to this point, it's Monday morning, the
help shows up (well half of them do) and you are ready to start
building airplanes... mebbe... Do you have enough materials on hand?
(heh, heh, the aluminum isn't in yet - you make a mental note to call
the distributor and find out when it will be in) Do your people know
what to do?... So you set about teaching - tough to be in 3 places at
once, eh!... The first thing one says is, "hey boss, when do we get
paid?"...

Ah yes, pay roll!!! So off to the bank you go to set up a business
checking account... The pretty little teller (the one with the great
bazooms) says, "fine Mr. Smith, now I just need your federal employer
number and a copy of your DBA certificate... Federal employer number,
DBA??????

Yup, and along with that you likely get to meet some very nice people
from the:
EPA
DNR
OSHA
FAA
State
County
Township

You will find that you need appropriate signage, handicap parking
stripes, ramps along side of stairs, curbs and steps marked with safety
yellow paint, non slip treads, OSHA approved cabinets for storing
flammables, eye wash stations, whole body showers, and a great long
list of other stuff...

I could go on in great detail for tens of thousands of words, but I
won't applause... Anyway, the point of this for those who have never
actually started a business, is that there is a whole bunch you don't
know about our FREE country...

denny

Denny,
Your assuming quite a few things here, like, the person starting
this has never owned or operated a business before, never built a
plane, or is in Jacksonville FL. Lets look at the same thing from
another angle.
A person builds a plane, He likes the results but decides to design
and build his own that would qualify for the LSA. He sets up his
garage, basement, shed with tools he already owns. Then proceeds to
make the necessary jigs and tables, just as before but for his new
design. He goes ahead and builds the new design, fly's it, test it, all
the while he is making note after note on changes and efficiencies. By
now he has a great idea on cost for just one plane and he has spent
well under $70.000. Now we all know that any profit and overhead on
top of this will just raise the price to the average of what is offered
now.
Remember, the jigs are made and paid for, the changes will make it
more efficient, and purchasing products in bulk will help make them
less expensive. Now you write your business plan. An equity loan will
help with the money, Renting a factory could be as simple as renting a
hanger, you certainly wouldn't be dumb enough to start in the business
district of downtown. Employee's, why would you need more than one?
Roll up your sleeves and do the work yourself, better yet, get a
partner who would like to start in on this. As for the DNR, OSHA, and
the rest of Gilligans Island, unless your dumb enough to name your
business something like, "Come and Audit Me Inc." your not going to
hear from these guys. I realize that I'v never owned an airplance
factory, but I also beleive that companies like Van's didn't start out
in a factory either. To give up before trying is definite defeat.
Lou

Lou wrote:
Denny,
snip snip...

Both of you make very convincing arguments! Hopefully reality is
somewhere in between.

I subscribe to the school of thought that while "good" help is hard to
find, it's hard to put a price on great help.

("Denny" wrote)
(snippy snippy)
So you want to manufacture the WHiz Bang 4, that you drew up in your spare
time at your real job...
OK, ya gotta have a shop to work in... So go lease a factory building...
BANG, ya got overhead! And you have to feed it every month, even while you
are still trying to put the business together...


"Hello, China?"


Montbwack