Silly controller

The controller said
"Reporting canceling IFR this freq or..."

-Robert


Robert Chambers wrote:
Radar services terminated is not the same thing as IFR being cancelled.
Where I fly I'm always told that "Radar services terminated, contact
xx tower on 120.9" I'm still fully IFR, and may or may not be in the
clouds and although he says he's terminated radar services he is more
than likely still keeping an eye on me. If I were to veer way off
course he'd call my tower and ask what the heck n12345 was doing.

Robert

Doug wrote:
I was once told, just outside the FAF "the approach is APPROVED, radar
services TERMINATED". And yes kiddies I was in a cloud. (He musta been
a supervisor :-)

Brad wrote:

Robert M. Gary wrote:

The other day I was doing a VFR practice approach into Tracy, CA when
the controller told me "reporting canceling IFR this freq, or on ground
via land line...". I told him "uh, ok canceling IFR, I didn't believe I
was IFR" (because I hadn't asked for or received an IFR clearance).
The controller told me that any aircraft on an approach clearance is
IFR for the purposes of the approach. I guess even controllers can be
students?

-Robert

At least it's better than the controller who told my instrument student
as we approached the FAF, (we were on an IFR flight plan) "IFR
canceled, squawk VFR, frequency change approved." even though we hadn't
canceled. It was VMC, so operationally it wasn't a big deal for us,
but I learned from TRACON's QC person that the controller was a trainee
and the instructing controller missed it.

Doug wrote:
I was once told, just outside the FAF "the approach is APPROVED, radar
services TERMINATED". And yes kiddies I was in a cloud. (He musta been
a supervisor :-)

At my home airport, we had radar service terminated all the time. Radar
didn't reach below 3000 feet or so and they (usually) let us know when
they couldn't pick us up anymore. We were still IFR.

"Emily" wrote in message
...

At my home airport, we had radar service terminated all the time. Radar
didn't reach below 3000 feet or so and they (usually) let us know when
they couldn't pick us up anymore. We were still IFR.


The phraseology for loss of radar contact is "radar contact lost", not
"radar service terminated".

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Emily" wrote in message
...
At my home airport, we had radar service terminated all the time. Radar
didn't reach below 3000 feet or so and they (usually) let us know when
they couldn't pick us up anymore. We were still IFR.


The phraseology for loss of radar contact is "radar contact lost", not
"radar service terminated".

Tell that to Chicago Center.

On 26 Aug 2006 06:56:08 -0700, "Doug" wrote:

I was once told, just outside the FAF "the approach is APPROVED, radar
services TERMINATED". And yes kiddies I was in a cloud. (He musta been
a supervisor :-)

Why did you think that was a problem?

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Robert M. Gary wrote:
The other day I was doing a VFR practice approach into Tracy, CA when
the controller told me "reporting canceling IFR this freq, or on ground
via land line...". I told him "uh, ok canceling IFR, I didn't believe I
was IFR" (because I hadn't asked for or received an IFR clearance).
The controller told me that any aircraft on an approach clearance is
IFR for the purposes of the approach. I guess even controllers can be
students?

We are in the middle of that same thing now. Your approach control,
like ours, probably has a letter to airmen out there that says they will
provide service to the extent possible. What they probably did, like we
used to, is to tell you "radar service terminated, squawk VFR, freq
change approved." Our region has determined that that does not provide
the service the letter to airmen says we will. He probably didn't say
report cancelling IFR but rather to report completing the approach,
that's the region mandated phraseology. Another unwanted outcome of
this policy is at uncontrolled airports you can now only have one
aircraft on a practice approach at a time. We used to just terminate
the aircraft about 6-8 miles from the airport and then as long as the
next approach was at least three miles behind that one everything was
good. Now we can no longer have anybody on the approach behind the
first guy unless we say "practice approach approved, separation not
provided, maintain VFR." When we terminated the first guy that does not
relieve ATC from providing the required three miles and since by
definition you cannot provide radar service to somebody you terminate,
even though you can still see his target, you have to get the report of
completing the approach before allowing the next guy to get a clearance.

In article . com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

The other day I was doing a VFR practice approach into Tracy, CA when
the controller told me "reporting canceling IFR this freq, or on ground
via land line...". I told him "uh, ok canceling IFR, I didn't believe I
was IFR" (because I hadn't asked for or received an IFR clearance).
The controller told me that any aircraft on an approach clearance is
IFR for the purposes of the approach. I guess even controllers can be
students?

I had a similar experience Wednesday evening with the VOR/DME GPS A
practice approach into Tracy in good VMC. I explicitly asked for a
practice approach, negotiated with the controller for the missed, and
got switched to CTAF fairly early on. The approach went fairly normally,
then when I came back to him on the (new, improved) missed and asked for
flight following back to Hayward, he says "report cancelling IFR". I
thought maybe he'd confused us with someone else, so I repeated the
request, and got the same terse response. So I cancelled IFR, even
though it was a practice approach; there was no mode c code change or
any other change after cancelling IFR.

It wasn't a big deal or anything, but it hasn't happened to me before
with NorCal Approach, and I've done that and surrounding approaches many
times as practice approaches. I just thought maybe I'd said something
wrong earlier when I'd asked for the approach, especially since I'd
cancelled the original clearance (from Hayward) much earlier in the
flight when doing a bunch of practice approaches at Stockton with the
same controller...

Hamish

Hamish Reid writes:
I had a similar experience Wednesday evening with the VOR/DME GPS A
practice approach into Tracy in good VMC. I explicitly asked for a
practice approach, negotiated with the controller for the missed, and
got switched to CTAF fairly early on. The approach went fairly normally,
then when I came back to him on the (new, improved) missed and asked for
flight following back to Hayward, he says "report cancelling IFR". I
thought maybe he'd confused us with someone else, so I repeated the
request, and got the same terse response. So I cancelled IFR, even
though it was a practice approach; there was no mode c code change or
any other change after cancelling IFR.

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR. And that makes
sense, since he subsequently asked you to report when you were
cancelling your IFR clearance. The above exchange sounds to me
like he gave you a new pop-up IFR clearance -- what you requested:
direct Hayward. The part where you asked for "practice" and "flight
following" seems inconsistent with what he was saying back to you.
Are you sure it was the same guy who you started the approach with?

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.


No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."

Umm, I would like to see this cancellation scenario happen when the IFR
student is on his check ride with either an FAA examiner or DER in the
plane... Watching two branches of the federal government duke it out
could be highly entertaining...

Anyway, if you are not truly VFR or if you need that IFR approach for
currency there is that word in the regs, "Unable", for a reason... A
single word, unadorned - and no further explanation will be offered by
me any more than he did. The controller is then obligated to continue
to handle you IFR...
Now, having said that, being normally a cooperative cuss, and if I am
just shooting the approach to stay sharp, and he is busy, etc., I won't
care, I'll simply grunt, "roger that, 57 pop", hit the 1200 button and
continue the approach...

denny