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#2
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![]() "Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message ... The instruction "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" contains "cleared", a route (which is even a charted IFR procedure), an altitude, and a clearance limit (landing Foobar airport, or executing the published missed approach procedure). How is that not an IFR clearance? I think it is, unless the controller adds the words "maintain VFR". When I want a practice approach and the controller fails to say "VFR", I add it back in to try and make sure, like: "Cherokee 97R cleared for the ILS 29 maintain VFR". It does not contain a clearance limit. IFR training flights frequently include approaches at intermediate airports and approach clearances for each one, but the clearance limit remains the destination airport. |
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#4
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![]() Christopher C. Stacy wrote: The instruction "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" contains "cleared", a route (which is even a charted IFR procedure), an altitude, and a clearance limit (landing Foobar airport, or executing the published missed approach procedure). How is that not an IFR clearance? It's not. I think it is, unless the controller adds the words "maintain VFR". When I want a practice approach and the controller fails to say "VFR", I add it back in to try and make sure, like: "Cherokee 97R cleared for the ILS 29 maintain VFR". Not necessary. If you are doing a whole series of practice approaches the controller needs to tell you one time to maintain VFR. Not one time per approach, just one time. |
#5
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![]() Christopher C. Stacy wrote: "Robert M. Gary" writes: The instruction "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" contains "cleared", a route (which is even a charted IFR procedure), an altitude, and a clearance limit (landing Foobar airport, or executing the published missed approach procedure). How is that not an IFR clearance? I think it is, unless the controller adds the words "maintain VFR". When I want a practice approach and the controller fails to say "VFR", I add it back in to try and make sure, like: "Cherokee 97R cleared for the ILS 29 maintain VFR". No, to be IFR you must have a clearance limit. The clearance must clear you to some specific thing (like an intersection or most commonly, a destination). So a common popup IFR approach clearance sounds like... "Cleared to the Foobar airport via radar vectors, fly heading 123, maintain 2000 until established cleared for the ILS runway 22 foobar". (Notice the "cleared to Foobar airport at the begining showing its an IFR clearance. -Robert, CFII |
#6
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![]() "Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message ... Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" ? No. Like when you picked up your IFR clearance some time prior to that and heard "Cleared to..." |
#7
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![]() Christopher C. Stacy wrote: "Steven P. McNicoll" writes: "Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message ... When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say "Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR. No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..." Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" ? My interpretation of the ATC handbook is that there are three types of practice approaches: 1) You can be IFR, in which case it works just like any other IFR operation except that practice approaches are lower priority (you can be delayed). This comes with a proper IFR clearance (with a clearance limit) as has been stated in this thread. 2) You can be VFR, but with separation services. Here you get 500 ft vertical separation from other traffic and standard lateral separation. The published miss is not authorized unless the controller specifically approves it, and if he does approve it, separation services are provided for the missed approach procedure as well. This comes with the instruction "CLEARED FOR THE APPROACH" or similar. 3) You can be VFR, but without separation services. The missed approach is again not authorized. This comes with the instruction "PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED" or similar. If you're operating under VFR, the controller is supposed to remind you by saying "MAINTAIN VFR" at some point, but if the controller forgets, it doesn't change anything. If separation services are provided, then the controller must be informed when to terminate those services. Could this be when the confusion occurs? What is the terminology for terminating VFR separation services? I've assumed that many controllers use standard IFR cancellation terminology for that even when the airplane is operated under VFR. Peter |
#8
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#9
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"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
... The last time I asked an operational supervisor at the FAA (Boston), which was yesterday, he said that in this (VFR) case the lack of the phrase "MAINTAIN VFR" indicates they believe you are accepting an IFR clearance with the airport as the clearance limit (unless you were previously on an IFR clearance as you describe above). I specifically asked him if there was a clearance limit, and what it would be. He also went on to tell me about what he expected the lost communications procedures would be. This was without having said "CLEARED TO airport". That is the point of contention. Would this be a supervisor who's operational and procedural knowledge is on a par with the one I dealt with at Miami TRACON in the mid-90s? The one who told me they didn't use permanent echoes to align/check the accuracy of their video maps even though a check of their own facility SOPs clearly stated they did and even had photos of the indicator showing where the PEs were. Sometimes FAA supervisors are where they are to get them out of where they were :-/ You're not on an IFR clearance until you're "Cleared to XXX, via YYY, maintain ZZZ" An approach clearance IS NOT an IFR clearance; with or without the phrase "Maintain VFR." has it correct. |
#10
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![]() "Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message ... The last time I asked an operational supervisor at the FAA (Boston), which was yesterday, he said that in this (VFR) case the lack of the phrase "MAINTAIN VFR" indicates they believe you are accepting an IFR clearance with the airport as the clearance limit (unless you were previously on an IFR clearance as you describe above). I specifically asked him if there was a clearance limit, and what it would be. He also went on to tell me about what he expected the lost communications procedures would be. This was without having said "CLEARED TO airport". That is the point of contention. He's wrong. |
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