Silly controller

(Christopher C. Stacy) writes:

"Robert M. Gary" writes:

Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.


No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."

Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" ?
Or "Cleared to Land"

Word games aside, Steven is right. The difference between being IFR and
VFR in controlled airspace is being told "cleared to foobar".

The instruction "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established"
contains "cleared", a route (which is even a charted IFR procedure), an altitude,
and a clearance limit (landing Foobar airport, or executing the published missed
approach procedure). How is that not an IFR clearance?

I think it is, unless the controller adds the words "maintain VFR".
When I want a practice approach and the controller fails to say "VFR",
I add it back in to try and make sure, like:
"Cherokee 97R cleared for the ILS 29 maintain VFR".

I phoned Boston TRACON for their opinion, and the supervisor said that when
(for example) receiving multiple practice approaches in VFR conditions,
with the phraeology given above: unless the magic words "maintain VFR"
are in the instruction, you are in the system, receiving IFR separation,
and in the event of lost comm would be expected (in VFR conditions) to land.

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

The instruction "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000
until established" contains "cleared", a route (which is even a charted
IFR procedure), an altitude, and a clearance limit (landing Foobar
airport,
or executing the published missed approach procedure). How is that not
an IFR clearance?

I think it is, unless the controller adds the words "maintain VFR".
When I want a practice approach and the controller fails to say "VFR",
I add it back in to try and make sure, like:
"Cherokee 97R cleared for the ILS 29 maintain VFR".


It does not contain a clearance limit. IFR training flights frequently
include approaches at intermediate airports and approach clearances for each
one, but the clearance limit remains the destination airport.

(Christopher C. Stacy) wrote:

The instruction "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000
until established" contains "cleared", a route (which is even a charted
IFR procedure), an altitude, and a clearance limit (landing Foobar
airport, or executing the published missed approach procedure). How
is that not an IFR clearance?

There is no clearance limit -- you're not cleared "to" anyplace. The IFR
version of the above would be:

"Cleared to the Foobar airport, cleared ILS 23 approach, maintain 2000
until established".

There's also no such thing as an "IFR procedure". There are "instrument
procedures". You can fly them VFR or IFR.

Christopher C. Stacy wrote:



The instruction "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established"
contains "cleared", a route (which is even a charted IFR procedure), an altitude,
and a clearance limit (landing Foobar airport, or executing the published missed
approach procedure). How is that not an IFR clearance?

It's not.



I think it is, unless the controller adds the words "maintain VFR".
When I want a practice approach and the controller fails to say "VFR",
I add it back in to try and make sure, like:
"Cherokee 97R cleared for the ILS 29 maintain VFR".

Not necessary. If you are doing a whole series of practice approaches
the controller needs to tell you one time to maintain VFR. Not one time
per approach, just one time.

Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" writes:

The instruction "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established"
contains "cleared", a route (which is even a charted IFR procedure), an altitude,
and a clearance limit (landing Foobar airport, or executing the published missed
approach procedure). How is that not an IFR clearance?

I think it is, unless the controller adds the words "maintain VFR".
When I want a practice approach and the controller fails to say "VFR",
I add it back in to try and make sure, like:
"Cherokee 97R cleared for the ILS 29 maintain VFR".

No, to be IFR you must have a clearance limit. The clearance must clear
you to some specific thing (like an intersection or most commonly, a
destination).
So a common popup IFR approach clearance sounds like...
"Cleared to the Foobar airport via radar vectors, fly heading 123,
maintain 2000 until established cleared for the ILS runway 22 foobar".
(Notice the "cleared to Foobar airport at the begining showing its an
IFR clearance.

-Robert, CFII

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until
established" ?


No. Like when you picked up your IFR clearance some time prior to that and
heard "Cleared to..."

Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.


No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."

Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" ?

My interpretation of the ATC handbook is that there are three types of
practice approaches:

1) You can be IFR, in which case it works just like any other IFR
operation except that practice approaches are lower priority (you can
be delayed). This comes with a proper IFR clearance (with a clearance
limit) as has been stated in this thread.

2) You can be VFR, but with separation services. Here you get 500 ft
vertical separation from other traffic and standard lateral separation.
The published miss is not authorized unless the controller
specifically approves it, and if he does approve it, separation
services are provided for the missed approach procedure as well. This
comes with the instruction "CLEARED FOR THE APPROACH" or similar.

3) You can be VFR, but without separation services. The missed
approach is again not authorized. This comes with the instruction
"PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED" or similar.

If you're operating under VFR, the controller is supposed to remind you
by saying "MAINTAIN VFR" at some point, but if the controller forgets,
it doesn't change anything.

If separation services are provided, then the controller must be
informed when to terminate those services. Could this be when the
confusion occurs? What is the terminology for terminating VFR
separation services? I've assumed that many controllers use standard
IFR cancellation terminology for that even when the airplane is
operated under VFR.

Peter

writes:
Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" writes:

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

When he gave you the clearance for the approach, did he say
"Maintain VFR?" If not, you were really IFR.


No. You're really IFR when you hear "Cleared to..."

Like in, "Cleared for the ILS runway 23 at Foobar maintain 2000 until established" ?

My interpretation of the ATC handbook is that there are
three types of practice approaches:

1) You can be IFR, in which case it works just like any other IFR
operation except that practice approaches are lower priority (you
can be delayed). This comes with a proper IFR clearance (with a
clearance limit) as has been stated in this thread.

Yes.

2) You can be VFR, but with separation services. Here you get 500 ft
vertical separation from other traffic and standard lateral separation.
The published miss is not authorized unless the controller
specifically approves it, and if he does approve it, separation
services are provided for the missed approach procedure as well.
This comes with the instruction "CLEARED FOR THE APPROACH" or similar.

Yes.

3) You can be VFR, but without separation services. The missed
approach is again not authorized. This comes with the instruction
"PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED" or similar.

"MAINTAIN VFR, PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED, NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED."

If you're operating under VFR, the controller is supposed to remind you
by saying "MAINTAIN VFR" at some point, but if the controller forgets,
it doesn't change anything.

It presumably reflects whether the controller believes whether you are now IFR.

The last time I asked an operational supervisor at the FAA (Boston),
which was yesterday, he said that in this (VFR) case the lack of the
phrase "MAINTAIN VFR" indicates they believe you are accepting an IFR
clearance with the airport as the clearance limit (unless you were
previously on an IFR clearance as you describe above). I specifically
asked him if there was a clearance limit, and what it would be.
He also went on to tell me about what he expected the lost communications
procedures would be. This was without having said "CLEARED TO airport".
That is the point of contention.

My point is just that the controller may have made a mistake and issued
a wrong clearance, and that the pilot should clarify what he wanted.

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...
The last time I asked an operational supervisor at the FAA (Boston),
which was yesterday, he said that in this (VFR) case the lack of the
phrase "MAINTAIN VFR" indicates they believe you are accepting an IFR
clearance with the airport as the clearance limit (unless you were
previously on an IFR clearance as you describe above). I specifically
asked him if there was a clearance limit, and what it would be.
He also went on to tell me about what he expected the lost communications
procedures would be. This was without having said "CLEARED TO airport".
That is the point of contention.

Would this be a supervisor who's operational and procedural knowledge is on
a par with the one I dealt with at Miami TRACON in the mid-90s?

The one who told me they didn't use permanent echoes to align/check the
accuracy of their video maps even though a check of their own facility SOPs
clearly stated they did and even had photos of the indicator showing where
the PEs were.

Sometimes FAA supervisors are where they are to get them out of where they
were :-/

You're not on an IFR clearance until you're "Cleared to XXX, via YYY,
maintain ZZZ"

An approach clearance IS NOT an IFR clearance; with or without the phrase
"Maintain VFR."

has it correct.

"Christopher C. Stacy" wrote in message
...

The last time I asked an operational supervisor at the FAA (Boston),
which was yesterday, he said that in this (VFR) case the lack of the
phrase "MAINTAIN VFR" indicates they believe you are accepting an IFR
clearance with the airport as the clearance limit (unless you were
previously on an IFR clearance as you describe above). I specifically
asked him if there was a clearance limit, and what it would be.
He also went on to tell me about what he expected the lost communications
procedures would be. This was without having said "CLEARED TO airport".
That is the point of contention.


He's wrong.