Midair near Minden

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:57:47 +0000, Mike Schumann wrote:

Why in the world would you leave a transponder off if you have the luxury of
having one????

Transponder installations in gliders are not as reliable as we would like
them to be. These are some of the reasons I know of for transponders not
being operational in VFR airspace that I have experienced by myself or by
other pilots I know personally:

- Battery failed unexpectedly and no backup installed.

- Battery failed unexpectedly and backup battery also failed unexpectedly.

- Transponder display faulty and spares unavailable (a common problem
with old Terra's).

- Loose connection between the altitude encoder and transponder resulted
in wild altitudes indications and ATC getting upset and requesting the
pilot to switch off the transponder. ATC also not happy with pilot
squawking mode A.

- Antenna located a little too close to pilot for comfort and pilot elects
to leave transponder switched off to protect the family jewels from
radiation when not in controlled airspace.

- Transponder operating but transmissions shielded by poorly
located antenna.

- Antenna damaged by earlier ground handling mishap and transponder
switched off.

- Transponder turned on but the pilot is unaware that it is non-functional
because it has not been ground checked for a long time and the glider has
not been in controlled airspace recently and hence the pilot has not had
confirmation from ATC that they can see him.

- Transponder is turned off because the pilot suspects it is not
working but has not had a chance to get it checked either on the ground,
or by talking to ATC.

- Transponder removed for repairs and sent to repair facility and it takes
many weeks to get it back.


And a couple of other reasons reported on RAS:

- Glider pilots requested to switch off transponders in certain
areas after false TCAS warnings triggered at nearby airports.

- Transponder set to squawk code that is filtered on ATC radar.

(Please note, I don't fly in the USA, none of the above occurred in the
USA so please don't quote me USA regulations.)

From my experience, it is feasible to fit transponders in a few privately
owned gliders for use during occasional flights in controlled airspace (or
other airspace with active communication with ATC).

However, it is not practical to equip an entire fleet of gliders with
transponders, instruct the pilots to squawk "blind" and expect this to
allow IFR traffic to be routed safely through the same airspace. This is a
recipe for disaster.


Ian

"Fred" wrote in message
ups.com...
My fear, though, is that the talking heads who
form much of Americans' opinions will start speaking out about the lack
of sophisticated equipment on board the sailplane. You know the kind:
"if that glider had an encoding transponder on it, this never would
have happened."

When you hear that, please point out to the speaker that the sailplane
pilot was following all the regulations

Here is a controversial part. While it's true that gliders are not required
to have a transponder, and thus it's also true that "the sailplane pilot was
following all the regulations", it's not the whole story. An argument can be
made that this particular regulation, arbitrary as any other human-made law,
might not be all that wise after all. This particular regulation, or lack of
thereof, allows us to go up without a transponder and kill ourselves -- and
possibly many others -- to our hearts' content. Does it mean that we should
stand by this regulation as one of our "freedoms"? I honestly don't know.
The law does not keep us from doing all the stupid things in the world --
common sense does. Sometimes, anyway.

OTOH, I can't quite agree with the N.O.H. theory, either. It's a simple
cost/benefit analysis. We don't have to accept all the risks as "normal" if
we can mitigate some of it at a reasonable cost. It boils down to the
definition of "reasonable", of course. So far, on the average, we as a
community seem to perceive the risk as very low and the cost as
"unreasonable". This Monday may have changed this proportion somewhat --
miraculously, without even great loss of life.

Of course, in a perfect world where FAA was up-to-speed with technology and
airlines considered their options carefully, we'd all be flying with
low-power, low-cost ADS-B or FLARM-like devices since the beginning of the
GPS era. In the real world, meanwhile, we have to fend for ourselves a
little bit if we hope to survive.
"The-law-says-we-are-right,-so-we-won't-lift-a-finger;-let-them-change-instead"
kind of attitude is not very constructive and may not achieve too much good
in this world where the money talks (but doesn't always think).
--
Yuliy

Doug,

You don't have to have a transponder to get the controllers
to know you are there. True, I'm not talking 'Flight
Following' but more like 'Flight Awareness.'

On occassions, I have called the local controllers
for the Class C airport (RDU) and let them know I was
there and was monitoring their frequency. They would
first reply to 'Squak' such and such and I would tell
them I didn't have a transponder. They would then
find me on radar. Ok, maybe they aren't as busy as
some other locations, but at least I make them aware
that I'm out there. Occassionaly, they might call
up and ask how I'm doing, and just being friendly.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

At 12:36 30 August 2006, Doug Haluza wrote:
snoop wrote:

The one item, I'm curious to hear about, if, this
item, is on the
Reno/Minden Jeppesen IFR charts. I know it's on the
VFR sectionals, but
is there a glider icon on the IFR charts in that region?

Good point about getting the glider symbol on the IFR
charts. Most jet
jocks use these almost exclusively. The more we do
to raise awareness
the better.

Another way to raise awareness of glider trafiic is
to make Pireps. I
try to do this at least once on every good soaring
day, especially if
there is wave. Report your aircraft type as simply
a Glider (nobody
else will know or care what make/model you are flying).
You can just
report clear and 50 mi visibility, or give detailed
(and useful) info
on cloud layers and winds aloft. Pireps get wide dissemination
to
pilots, ATC and dispatchers, so this is a good way
to remind them that
we are out there too. Glider pilots who also fly commercially
will
appreciate hearing your Pirep when they are working
(try to make them
as jealous as possible by reporting from the top of
the climb!). You
can give Pireps to Flight Watch on 122.0 MHz, or you
can contact a FSS
or ATC facility on a discrete frequency. Check the
AIM for more info on
Pireps.

Another thing you can do is to get VFR flight following
if you have a
transponder. Again, just give your aircraft type as
a Glider. This lets
pilots and controllers in the section know we are out
there. It also
gets you a discrete transponder code. Most ATC sections
filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes.
So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no
guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they
are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

I know a lot of glider pilots like to stay out of the
system. But out
of sight is out of mind.

Ray: I like this. I have briefing pilots going north to call RNO
approach even though they plan to stay above the top of the Class C.
I think I'll recommend more conversation with RNO approach, even if
we're not heading north. Fred

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
Doug,

You don't have to have a transponder to get the controllers
to know you are there. True, I'm not talking 'Flight
Following' but more like 'Flight Awareness.'

On occassions, I have called the local controllers
for the Class C airport (RDU) and let them know I was
there and was monitoring their frequency. They would
first reply to 'Squak' such and such and I would tell
them I didn't have a transponder. They would then
find me on radar. Ok, maybe they aren't as busy as
some other locations, but at least I make them aware
that I'm out there. Occassionaly, they might call
up and ask how I'm doing, and just being friendly.

Chinook approach near our local airliner airport (PSC) responds the same
way. The non-transponder equipped gliders often call them shortly after
take-off, and they usually spot everyone until we leave on course. I
assume Approach could be alerted at other airliner airports, too, and I
think some of the guys do that, too.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

You can also ask for flight following without a transponder, but
primary echo's are not reliable. I have tried this in the past around
the ISP Class-C. Even 10nm out, with a 20m Carbon wing, they couldn't
see me on some headings.

If you do call ATC without a transponder, the proper phraseology is to
add "slant X-ray" after your call sign. The slant codes indicate
equipment like transponder and DME, and "/X" means none. I've had
controllers give me a squawk code anyway, because they may not be
familiar with this one, but at least it makes you sound professional.

If you have a Mode-C transponder only, the code is "slant Uniform. I am
/U now, and I carry 2 x 13 Ah batteries that can run the transponder
and everything else for over 12 hours.

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
Doug,

You don't have to have a transponder to get the controllers
to know you are there. True, I'm not talking 'Flight
Following' but more like 'Flight Awareness.'

On occassions, I have called the local controllers
for the Class C airport (RDU) and let them know I was
there and was monitoring their frequency. They would
first reply to 'Squak' such and such and I would tell
them I didn't have a transponder. They would then
find me on radar. Ok, maybe they aren't as busy as
some other locations, but at least I make them aware
that I'm out there. Occassionaly, they might call
up and ask how I'm doing, and just being friendly.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

While you may be detected by ATC on primary without a transponder, you
wouldn't be detected by airliners and other aircrafts carrying TCAS and
will not give traffic resolution.

Another (secondary) reason to carry a transponder and leave it on, is
that if, god forbidden, you go down in a remote area, replaying ATC
tapes may help finding you.

Ramy

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
Doug,

You don't have to have a transponder to get the controllers
to know you are there. True, I'm not talking 'Flight
Following' but more like 'Flight Awareness.'

On occassions, I have called the local controllers
for the Class C airport (RDU) and let them know I was
there and was monitoring their frequency. They would
first reply to 'Squak' such and such and I would tell
them I didn't have a transponder. They would then
find me on radar. Ok, maybe they aren't as busy as
some other locations, but at least I make them aware
that I'm out there. Occassionaly, they might call
up and ask how I'm doing, and just being friendly.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

At 12:36 30 August 2006, Doug Haluza wrote:
snoop wrote:

The one item, I'm curious to hear about, if, this
item, is on the
Reno/Minden Jeppesen IFR charts. I know it's on the
VFR sectionals, but
is there a glider icon on the IFR charts in that region?

Good point about getting the glider symbol on the IFR
charts. Most jet
jocks use these almost exclusively. The more we do
to raise awareness
the better.

Another way to raise awareness of glider trafiic is
to make Pireps. I
try to do this at least once on every good soaring
day, especially if
there is wave. Report your aircraft type as simply
a Glider (nobody
else will know or care what make/model you are flying).
You can just
report clear and 50 mi visibility, or give detailed
(and useful) info
on cloud layers and winds aloft. Pireps get wide dissemination
to
pilots, ATC and dispatchers, so this is a good way
to remind them that
we are out there too. Glider pilots who also fly commercially
will
appreciate hearing your Pirep when they are working
(try to make them
as jealous as possible by reporting from the top of
the climb!). You
can give Pireps to Flight Watch on 122.0 MHz, or you
can contact a FSS
or ATC facility on a discrete frequency. Check the
AIM for more info on
Pireps.

Another thing you can do is to get VFR flight following
if you have a
transponder. Again, just give your aircraft type as
a Glider. This lets
pilots and controllers in the section know we are out
there. It also
gets you a discrete transponder code. Most ATC sections
filter out 1200
VFR codes, and only view aircraft with discrete codes.
So in this case,
even if the glider's transponder was on, there is no
guarantee that the
controller even saw it, much less gave a traffic warning--they
are not
required to warn IFR aircraft of VFR targets anyway.

I know a lot of glider pilots like to stay out of the
system. But out
of sight is out of mind.

Ramy wrote:
While you may be detected by ATC on primary without a transponder, you
wouldn't be detected by airliners and other aircrafts carrying TCAS and
will not give traffic resolution.

And you won't be detected by airplanes and gliders using a TPAS instrument.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Eric Greenwell wrote:
Ramy wrote:
While you may be detected by ATC on primary without a transponder, you
wouldn't be detected by airliners and other aircrafts carrying TCAS and
will not give traffic resolution.

And you won't be detected by airplanes and gliders using a TPAS instrument.


What is the difference between TCAS and TPAS?

TPAS is passive, it does not interrogate, as such much less accurate,
but fraction of the price of TCAS. You can find them under $500.

Ramy

Greg Arnold wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:
Ramy wrote:
While you may be detected by ATC on primary without a transponder, you
wouldn't be detected by airliners and other aircrafts carrying TCAS and
will not give traffic resolution.

And you won't be detected by airplanes and gliders using a TPAS instrument.


What is the difference between TCAS and TPAS?