Glider Crash - Minden?

All the transponders currently listed by Filser
http://www.filser.de/onlineshop/english/ are modes A/C and S, and have
extended squitter; they all have an integral alticoder. These are probably
the cheapest on the UK market http://www.lxavionics.co.uk/ .

I would be surprised if this is not true of other makes, I am sure it soon
will be.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Ramy" wrote in message
oups.com...

Thanks Glen. I am not aware of any transponder equiped glider not using
mode C. Seems like once you go through the hassle and cost of
installing a transponder, the encoder is the easy part. Mode A sounds
almost useless, more confusing then not. A mode A transponder could
signal an alert to any airline crusing at 30K above.
Which baffles me - Why aren't modern transponders already including
internal encoder??

Ramy

Ramy, With regard to the "signal an alert to any airline cruising at
30K above", most TCAS equipment will only show targets 10k above or
below their own ship, and that is selectable. On our TCAS the
selections are "above, auto, below'.
I will typically in cruise, select the below feature, especially if
negotiating weather, to see which way the other guys are going. Plus in
the descent it's nice for planning purposes, you can see where the
traffic your descending into is.


Ramy wrote:
Thanks Glen. I am not aware of any transponder equiped glider not using
mode C. Seems like once you go through the hassle and cost of
installing a transponder, the encoder is the easy part. Mode A sounds
almost useless, more confusing then not. A mode A transponder could
signal an alert to any airline crusing at 30K above.
Which baffles me - Why aren't modern transponders already including
internal encoder??

Ramy

Glen Kelley wrote:
Ramy,

The problem is that TCAS will display you as a target with altitude unknown
(unless you have mode c with an encoding altimeter). Therefore, TCAS will
only call you out as traffic and display your position without generating a
Resolution Advisory (RA). We see this pretty often as VFR traffic. We will
be looking hard for the traffic, but won't necessarily maneuver the
aircraft, since we can't see altitude/heading.

If in fact, the sailplane does have mode C with an encoding altimeter, then
the RA will be generated and you should see the big bird maneuver to avoid
the conflict. Note that a TCAS RA will direct maneuvering in the vertical
only, since TCAS azimuth is considered too innacurate to generate turn-based
avoidance. Typical RAs would be "Climb,Climb, Climb - Descend, Descend,
Descend - Reduce Climb - Reduce Descent, etc".

I guess I figured most of the gliders with transponders weren't using Mode
C, so good catch.

Glen
"Ramy" wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks for the excellent overview, Glen. Regarding number 3, why would
a TCAS equipped airliner pilot need to see me if the TCAS gives the
resolution? I'm pretty sure most of the airliners vectored around me
never actually see me (although I always
wave ;-)

Ramy

Glen Kelley wrote:
A few additions to Kirk's excellent points - from the background of
former
fighter pilot, current airline pilot, and current glider pilot:

1. We often surprise each other in sailplanes with how hard it is to see
each other. Don't expect an airline pilot to be any better at it! The
fighter pilot at least will have good visual acuity and is used to
looking
for small targets.

2. Airline pilots don't carry sectionals - at the speeds we operate,
there
would be little time to use them anyway. Fighter pilots will carry a low
level map and will have thought about visual traffic conflicts, wires,
terrain, etc in the planning stages. At the speeds they operate, they
aren't looking at those maps very often, once airborne.

3. The busier glider operations are notam'd and often referred to by atc
controllers. If you have an operable transponder, you will *normally* be
called out by atc and if TCAS equipped, airline pilots will be aware of
your
location. They would still have to see you to maneuver away from you.
(See
note 1.) Big airliners are not very maneuverable (mine - the Boeing
737 -
is limited to 2.5 g!).

4. Fighters are a different case. They don't have TCAS and only some of
them have the ability to interrogate/detect transponder targets. Some of
them have air intercept radar capability, but sailplanes are small radar
targets and will often (usually!) be filtered out because of their low
speeds and altitudes - like highway traffic. If they are at low
altitude,
fighters usually operate at high speed (420 - 540 indicated, except the
A-10). As Kirk pointed out they will almost never be alone, but will be
in
formations of 2 - 4. When low level (100 to 1500 agl, most commonly 300 -
500agl), they will normally *not* be receiving traffic information from
ATC.
When operating in a MOA, there may be intercept controllers who can call
out
glider traffic, but again, without a transponder, it is unlikely. The
formations will vary, but most pairs of flight lead and wingman will be
laterally spread by 5000 to 10000 feet, for visual lookout. The flight
lead
will be spending quite a bit of his time looking forward for threat
detection and navigation, but the wingman will be spending less time
looking
forward because he must maintain formation. If they see you, they have
an
excellent capability to avoid you. Head on and tail on, the sailplane
has
the tiny visual profile that fighter designers dream of.... In other
words,
you are nearly invisible unless you have a wing up in a turn/thermal.

5. As Kirk said, the primary threat is at 6 o'clock, because it is the
hardest to see - essentially, only the overtaking aircraft has a
reasonable
chance of avoiding a collision. Therefore, if you know you are operating
in
a high threat area: MOA, low level route, approach corridor, VFR flyway,
near an airport etc, I would "belly check" periodically, depending on the
nature of the threat. The timing is based on the amount of time it takes
for
the threat aircraft to close from outside visual range to hitting me from
the 6 o'clock position. I use visual ranges of 8nm for airliners, 5 nm
for
small commercial jets (corporate and regional jets) and fighters, and 3
nm
for light aircraft - adjust as your visual acuity and experience dictate.
I
use worst-case speeds as follows: airliner and small jets - 4 nm/min,
fighters - 8 nm/min, and light aircraft - 2.5 nm/min. Combing detection
ranges and times, I calculate: airliners - 2 min, small jets - 1 min and
15
sec, fighters - roughly 40 sec, and light planes - approx 1 min and 15
sec.
So... if you are straight and level for more than these times, there is
sufficient time for an aircraft to move from outside (my) visual range to
the same airspace as my (your) little pink body. As you would probably
guess, fighters are the worst case because of their relatively small size
and high closure rate. On the positive side, there are typically more
eyeballs with better acuity and better maneuverability involved.
Interestingly, small jets and light aircraft are not that far behind, as
far
as detection time is concerned. In my experience they are far less
likely
to see you than the fighters. The same is true for airliners, but
because
of their size you have more time to see them coming...

6. How to do a belly check: No, I don't hack a stopwatch, but I keep
the
above times in mind with respect to the likely threat for my area. My
primary threat is small jet/light aircraft that operate on various
highway/flyways and approach corridors. Away from these specific areas,
traffic density is extremely low. First clear your "new six" - if you
are
going to turn left, look to the area behind to the right 4 - 5 oclock
position - this will be your new blind spot. Next clear your new nose
position - this is where you are going to roll out. Finally make a 45
deg
turn to the left and visually clear your "old six", which is now at your
left 7 to 8 o'clock. Often/usually, a belly check can be incorporated
into
turns you are going to make anyway, for other reasons. When you
visually
clear, make sure you focus on something on the horizon, otherwise you are
only visually clearing out to an arms length. If I really need to hold a
straight line, I do the belly check as a gentle 45 deg turn to each side.

7. In a thermal, periodically check to the outside of your term to clear
your "new six". If there are other sailplanes with you in the thermal,
of
course they are the primary threats for midair, but you still need to
check
for other aircraft. Fortunately, you are easier to see while turning - as
long as the other pilots are looking...

8. Proximity to clouds. You need to think about what you are doing when
you are near cloudbase, in proximity to likely IFR traffic. If you are
500'
below cloudbase (perfectly legal), and an airliner descends out of the
cloud
at 250kt on his descent profile on collision course (perfectly legal),
there
may be as little as 20 seconds to impact. If you are tail on when this
happens - good luck. I'm sure no one would ever be right at cloudbase on
a
nice day, because that would violate the FARs - more importantly, you
are
"rolling the bones" every time you do this on a known approach corridor.

9. Conclusion. If you fly in a high airliner/small jet threat area and
can afford a transponder it will help other people see/avoid you. If
your
primary threat comes from military operations in MOAs, I would not spend
the
money on a transponder unless I knew those fighters have intercept/atc
controllers passing them information. The various TPAS - type devices
will
help your see/avoid efforts and should help in the case of fighters,
although the flight lead is likely the only one squawking in the
formation.
Only you/your club knows the primary threats for your particular
operating
area and you need to understand what they are. Taylor your altitude
awareness/cloud avoidance and belly check frequency to the nature of your
local area. Don't cede visual lookout/avoidance responsibility to
someone
else - ever. Sailplane right-of-way is a myth in most situations and a
comfort only to your survivors/legal counsel.

Hope this helps.

Glen

I just spent the time to read this whole thread,. Only my friend and
former hangar mate, the Mosquito pilot from Houston, makes real sence.
If you cannot see and avoid in visual flight rules area... SLOW DOWN.
Failure to do so is irresponsible. We don't need transponders if we all
avoid each other and that requires time to see and react. To me this is
the equivalent of riding with my brother in Phoenix who likes to drive
90 on the freeway, tailgating impossibly close, and passing on both
shoulders. It's crazy. I only go with him if I'm driving these days.
What I fear is the jet pilot's neglegence will be paid for by lost
flying priviledges in the soaring community. The other piece is going
into an area of reputed heavy glider traffic. Shouldn't she have known
that? Perhaps slowing them down isn't realistic. Demanding that at
least one of them have his/her head out of the cockpit isn't, in my
opinion.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

Jack, I can't agree that this is negligence on the jet pilot's part - at
least not until the investigation is complete.

Sailplanes are very hard to see. We surprise each other from time to time
at much slower closure rates than any jet is going to see closing with a
sailplane. Failure to maintain visual separation is a given, but negligence
is a stretch until someone shows the Captain/FO of the corporate jet were
reading the newspaper, serving drinks to the pax, or something equally
unlikely in the descent phase.

As far as airliner speeds and routing go, who do you think is going to win
if the airline industry is going to have to slow down or otherwise adjust to
blend with sailplane traffic (read that burn more gas and arrive later)? My
bet is with the airlines and flying public. Think about all the airports
that are closed after new housing encroaches on the airport boundaries. As
a small interest group we need to pick our battles.

I have never flown at Minden, but it sounds like the local crowd clearly
understands what is at stake and have tried to be good neighbors. Since no
one was seriously hurt, perhaps the flying environment won't change much.

Glen



"Jack" wrote in message
ps.com...
I just spent the time to read this whole thread,. Only my friend and
former hangar mate, the Mosquito pilot from Houston, makes real sence.
If you cannot see and avoid in visual flight rules area... SLOW DOWN.
Failure to do so is irresponsible. We don't need transponders if we all
avoid each other and that requires time to see and react. To me this is
the equivalent of riding with my brother in Phoenix who likes to drive
90 on the freeway, tailgating impossibly close, and passing on both
shoulders. It's crazy. I only go with him if I'm driving these days.
What I fear is the jet pilot's neglegence will be paid for by lost
flying priviledges in the soaring community. The other piece is going
into an area of reputed heavy glider traffic. Shouldn't she have known
that? Perhaps slowing them down isn't realistic. Demanding that at
least one of them have his/her head out of the cockpit isn't, in my
opinion.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)