Can EFIS / EFMS lead to removing basic safety checks?

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Spade ]
Posted At: Saturday, September 02, 2006 4:03 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Can EFIS / EFMS lead to removing basic safety checks?
Subject: Can EFIS / EFMS lead to removing basic safety checks?

Jim Carter wrote:


I heard some retired commuter pilot on the news last weekend
suggesting
that the only way to prevent this in the future is to put traffic
lights
(stop / go) on the end of every runway. I absolutely got the
impression
that he was there to convince the public that it is almost
impossible
for the pilots to get it right and the lack of the traffic signal
was
the whole cause of the problem. Sort of the typical "not my fault"
attitude.

If he thinks that is the only way, he is clueless.

My sentiments exactly Sam.

My question was more along the lines of new systems removing old safety
checks, but no one seems to be addressing that. Is there any physical
action that must be taken as an aircraft with and EFIS / EFMS moves into
position for takeoff to assure that the compass / gyro (or suitable
substitute) / display all agree on the runway heading? Could the modern
glass cockpits be setting us up for incidents or accidents because
insidious little actions we used to take with analog panels aren't
necessary any more?

Jim Carter wrote:


My question was more along the lines of new systems removing old safety
checks, but no one seems to be addressing that. Is there any physical
action that must be taken as an aircraft with and EFIS / EFMS moves into
position for takeoff to assure that the compass / gyro (or suitable
substitute) / display all agree on the runway heading? Could the modern
glass cockpits be setting us up for incidents or accidents because
insidious little actions we used to take with analog panels aren't
necessary any more?


Probably the best tool is a highly-detailed moving map presentation of
the airport diagram. Having said that, the pilot still has to know the
difference between "22" and "26."

Jim Carter wrote:
This question is the result of the wrong runway issue at LEX last weekend…



Not having flown an EFIS or EFMS myself, I'm not sure of the "into
position checklist items". For example, in a standard steam-gauge panel
one of the last things we check is to align the directional gyro with
the runway heading and compass. With an EFIS or EFMS, is there any such
last minute check, or is the heading assumed to be correct because it
was aligned by the GPS when the bird came out of the chocks?



If there is no requirement to manually align and verify runway heading,
compass, and EFIS/EFMS then our technological advances have
inadvertently removed one of our heretofore unrecognized safety checks.



I heard some retired commuter pilot on the news last weekend suggesting
that the only way to prevent this in the future is to put traffic lights
(stop / go) on the end of every runway. I absolutely got the impression
that he was there to convince the public that it is almost impossible
for the pilots to get it right and the lack of the traffic signal was
the whole cause of the problem. Sort of the typical "not my fault" attitude.









In the modern jets and many GA airplanes too the DG automaticly aligns
the correct magnetic heading. Checking the EFIS heading prior to take
off was not on our companies checklist.

Michelle P

Michelle P wrote:








In the modern jets and many GA airplanes too the DG automaticly aligns
the correct magnetic heading. Checking the EFIS heading prior to take
off was not on our companies checklist.

Michelle P

It should not have to be on any company's checklist. Some things are
basic airmanship.

Sam Spade wrote:
Michelle P wrote:








In the modern jets and many GA airplanes too the DG automaticly aligns
the correct magnetic heading. Checking the EFIS heading prior to take
off was not on our companies checklist.

Michelle P


It should not have to be on any company's checklist. Some things are
basic airmanship.
Not after having the basic stuff trained out of them.....
Follow the check list, follow the checklist, follow the checklist........

get the idea?
Michelle P

Michelle P wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:

Michelle P wrote:








In the modern jets and many GA airplanes too the DG automaticly
aligns the correct magnetic heading. Checking the EFIS heading prior
to take off was not on our companies checklist.

Michelle P



It should not have to be on any company's checklist. Some things are
basic airmanship.

Not after having the basic stuff trained out of them.....
Follow the check list, follow the checklist, follow the checklist........

get the idea?
Michelle P

I think I do.~ I did it for 27 years. Placing the runway heading on a
steam gauge HSI was considered good form at my company, but certainly
not a checklist item.

Placing the runway heading on a steam gauge HSI was considered good form at my company

Why? The runway heading is rarely a factor of ten on the nose, and
having an even heading is only good for an instrument takeoff. So,
you'd be usually setting the DG to an incorrect heading just before takeoff.

Makes no sense to me.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article jchKg.2674$c07.2060@fed1read04,
Sam Spade wrote:

In the modern jets and many GA airplanes too the DG automaticly aligns
the correct magnetic heading. Checking the EFIS heading prior to take
off was not on our companies checklist.

It should not have to be on any company's checklist. Some things are
basic airmanship.

No, they're equipment-specific procedures. Doing a mag check prior to
takeoff is not "basic airmanship" either, nor is realigning the DG every
15 minutes. They're specific procedures required by specific equipment,
and neither is relevant on a modern turbine-powered airplane.

Did you align the IRUs in your 152 before you started moving? Check the
landing gear doors as part of your walk-around? Of course not, because
they're not appropriate procedures for THAT AIRPLANE. See what I'm
getting at?

-----Original Message-----
From: Beavis ]
Posted At: Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:40 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Can EFIS / EFMS lead to removing basic safety checks?
Subject: Can EFIS / EFMS lead to removing basic safety checks?

....
Did you align the IRUs in your 152 before you started moving? Check
the
landing gear doors as part of your walk-around? Of course not,
because
they're not appropriate procedures for THAT AIRPLANE. See what I'm
getting at?

I see what you saying about specific procedures for particular aircraft,
but shouldn't heading cross-checks be basic airmanship?

In the analog aircraft that entails manually setting the DG when
cross-checking with the runway and compass. Having not flown and EFIS /
EFMS equipped aircraft, my question was is there a similar cross-check
or has the system negated that necessity. It seems from the answers that
the heading cross-check is no longer manual or an actual checklist item,
so the system has eliminated that safety check.

Now the question becomes, would a checklist item have caught the
complacency if that is truly what the root cause of the LEX accident
turns out to be?

Jim Carter wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Beavis ]
Posted At: Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:40 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Can EFIS / EFMS lead to removing basic safety checks?
Subject: Can EFIS / EFMS lead to removing basic safety checks?


...

Did you align the IRUs in your 152 before you started moving? Check

the

landing gear doors as part of your walk-around? Of course not,

because

they're not appropriate procedures for THAT AIRPLANE. See what I'm
getting at?


I see what you saying about specific procedures for particular aircraft,
but shouldn't heading cross-checks be basic airmanship?

In the analog aircraft that entails manually setting the DG when
cross-checking with the runway and compass. Having not flown and EFIS /
EFMS equipped aircraft, my question was is there a similar cross-check
or has the system negated that necessity. It seems from the answers that
the heading cross-check is no longer manual or an actual checklist item,
so the system has eliminated that safety check.

Now the question becomes, would a checklist item have caught the
complacency if that is truly what the root cause of the LEX accident
turns out to be?



You would only check the EFIS heading if the Comparator smelled trouble
and triggered a warning. The computer cross checks the left and right
systems so the pilots do not have to.
Michelle P