Why don't voice radio communications use FM?

Mxsmanic wrote:
Perhaps, but I don't plan to fly an actual plane. I'd prefer a
full-motion simulator if given the choice. Simulators don't crash.

Then obviously you are on the wrong newsgroup... Perhaps you should go
to comp.pc.ibm.pc.games.flight-sim or rec.aviation.simulators and leave
this group for real pilots...

"Mxsmanic" wrote:

The only way to fly IFR or VFRfor hat matter is in an airplane. You are
simulating IFR, you are not by the longest stretch of the imagination
flying
IFR.

The I in IFR stands for instruments. You fly just by reading
instruments. In fact, using a simulator that has no motion or scenery
is a good test for IFR flight; if you can't fly without feeling
movement or looking out the window, you don't know how to fly IFR.

Another item added to the long list of things about which you have opinions
but almost no knowledge.

Do you have a job after school?

--
Dan

"Did you just have a stroke and not tell me?"
- Jiminy Glick

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:40:48 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Dave Stadt writes:

The only way to fly IFR or VFRfor hat matter is in an airplane. You are
simulating IFR, you are not by the longest stretch of the imagination flying
IFR.

The I in IFR stands for instruments. You fly just by reading
instruments. In fact, using a simulator that has no motion or scenery
is a good test for IFR flight; if you can't fly without feeling
movement or looking out the window, you don't know how to fly IFR.

No, you can't. Feeling the movement is entirely the point. If you
could fly the airplane by reference to the instruments without feeling
movement, then instrument training would be easy. But it doesn't work
like that in the real world. The airplane inherently imparts
accelerations that are inconsistent with the indications of the
instruments. Part of the training process is learning to ignore the
sensations and trust the instruments. It can be very difficult for the
untrained pilot to make this mental adjustment in the seconds before
making a crater in the ground, which is why getting the training
beforehand is so important.

RK Henry

RK Henry writes:

No, you can't. Feeling the movement is entirely the point.

That's a matter of individual preference. For instrument flight,
feeling the movement is not only unnecessary, but potentially
hazardous, if it distracts attention from what the instruments are
saying.

If you could fly the airplane by reference to the instruments
without feeling movement, then instrument training would be easy.

It is.

But it doesn't work like that in the real world. The airplane
inherently imparts accelerations that are inconsistent with the
indications of the instruments.

Which ones?

Part of the training process is learning to ignore the
sensations and trust the instruments.

That rather conflicts with the preceding statement, doesn't it? If
the instruments don't accurately indicate accelerations, why trust
them?

It can be very difficult for the untrained pilot to make this
mental adjustment in the seconds before making a crater in the
ground, which is why getting the training beforehand is so important.

Like I said, the idea is to trust the instruments.

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Mxsmanic,

If you could fly the airplane by reference to the instruments
without feeling movement, then instrument training would be easy.

It is.


Listen. For the past week or so people have constantly tried to tell
you that you might want to be more careful talking about things you
have no clue about. Why don't you take a hint?

How dare you judge how difficult instrument training is right after
having explained that you have never flown?

You must be truly dense.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 07:28:36 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

RK Henry writes:

No, you can't. Feeling the movement is entirely the point.

That's a matter of individual preference. For instrument flight,
feeling the movement is not only unnecessary, but potentially
hazardous, if it distracts attention from what the instruments are
saying.

If you could fly the airplane by reference to the instruments
without feeling movement, then instrument training would be easy.

It is.

But it doesn't work like that in the real world. The airplane
inherently imparts accelerations that are inconsistent with the
indications of the instruments.

He's correct, particularly in training. You are down low, it's hot,
and you are getting bounced around. Light and shadow play tricks such
as flying through light cumulus. The light flickers and is brighter on
one side than the other. Our minds tell us that brighter is up, but
it's usually off to one side.

I have a great photo that was shot by a friend from the back seat in a
Cherokee 180 when we were IFR in actual IMC. It was a relatively thin
layer of cumulus that wasn't supposed to be there according to the
forecast. At any rate, every one in the plane appears to be leaning
until you look at the AI. The two of us in front are aligned with the
AI while the photographer was the one with the "leans".


Which ones?

AI, TC, and DG. Both light and motion can give inputs to the body
that conflict with any or all of these three instruments. It takes
time, but you, or rather your mind, become acclimated to accepting the
instruments as input rather than the bodily senses as it does when
flying VFR.



Part of the training process is learning to ignore the
sensations and trust the instruments.

That rather conflicts with the preceding statement, doesn't it? If
the instruments don't accurately indicate accelerations, why trust
them?

Mainly it's because it's not a just matter of acceleration but the
summation of a multitude of inputs. For instance, I can put a plane
through a barrel roll while holding positive G all the way through. If
a passenger were not looking outside they would never know we had
rolled a complete 360 degrees. Bob Hoover used to do that with a glass
of water setting on the glare shield and the water stayed pretty much
level in the glass even when inverted. I'm not and never will be the
pilot Bob is.

You can also do a loop and maintain positive G all the way around.
What the person will feel is a pull up, a feeling of leveling off
(when inverted) and a feeling of pulling up again as you start down
the back side of the loop.

The really strange part about a loop for some one who gets used to the
motion is it often feels like the earth did a loop around you instead
of you doing a loop above the earth. In the G-III that would be a
maximum of about 4 1/2 Gs when the nose reaches a point about 45
degrees before level flight at the end of the loop.

I used to do a lot of photography. I shot road rallies for several
years and spent some time tied onto a helicopter. The pilot would
bank and use his own down wash to stop and hang there momentarily.
(gun ships do the same). Instead of me feeling like I was tipping
forward it was as if the earth tipped up in front of us.


It can be very difficult for the untrained pilot to make this
mental adjustment in the seconds before making a crater in the
ground, which is why getting the training beforehand is so important.

Like I said, the idea is to trust the instruments.

That is extremely difficult to do when your body is telling you
otherwise even when everything in the plane is working right. Add to
that a case of vertigo and your thinking gets stuck in the mud. It
takes a lot of conditioning before your mind is willing to accept the
input from the instruments over what your body is telling you. Add to
that the work load of climbing or descending to the proper altitude
and turning to the proper heading let alone holding heading and
altitude and it can become a high pressure environment at times. Some
never make that transition.

I fly high performance. I've let a lot of other pilots fly the Deb.
It's a rare pilot who has been flying fixed gear planes that wont soon
have the Deb doing 2Gs out of the bottom and zero over the top in a
PIO. They are used to looking at the VSI. That doesn't work in
slippery airplanes. More than one has had me saying to my self: I will
not get sick in my own airplane... I..will.. not...get ... sick...
in... my ... own airrrr...plane....

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger (K8RI) writes:

I fly high performance. I've let a lot of other pilots fly the Deb.
It's a rare pilot who has been flying fixed gear planes that wont soon
have the Deb doing 2Gs out of the bottom and zero over the top in a
PIO. They are used to looking at the VSI. That doesn't work in
slippery airplanes. More than one has had me saying to my self: I will
not get sick in my own airplane... I..will.. not...get ... sick...
in... my ... own airrrr...plane....

What _do_ you do if you get sick, especially if you are flying on your
own?

Are there instruments that indicate the direction and magnitude of net
accelerations in the aircraft, so that you can visually see if you are
holding 1 G or more in a loop?

Anyway, these accelerations are another reason why I'm not too keen on
flying for real. Some are pleasant enough, such as standard movements
on take-off, but bouncing around in turbulence or certain unexpected
movements of the aircraft are quite unpleasant. I've only been queasy
once on a commercial aircraft, but that was mainly because I was very
tired but could not sleep (as a passenger, obviously). The statistics
I've seen show that less than 0.1% of passengers experience motion
sickness; I don't know what the figure is for pilots.

Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be useful to have a drug that
eliminates all sense of motion for instrument flying. That way you
could watch your instruments without being influenced by what your
semicircular canals are saying.

--
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On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 19:52:40 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Roger (K8RI) writes:

I fly high performance. I've let a lot of other pilots fly the Deb.
It's a rare pilot who has been flying fixed gear planes that wont soon
have the Deb doing 2Gs out of the bottom and zero over the top in a
PIO. They are used to looking at the VSI. That doesn't work in
slippery airplanes. More than one has had me saying to my self: I will
not get sick in my own airplane... I..will.. not...get ... sick...
in... my ... own airrrr...plane....

What _do_ you do if you get sick, especially if you are flying on your
own?

You get sick and fly the airplane. My second time in actual which was
bringing the Deb home from Muncie IN. We were in building storms that
hadn't quite turned into thunderstorms...yet. a number of planes were
reporting severe turbulence (bad enough ATC had the altitude alarms
turned off) and torrential rain. At 9000 we were just catching the
bottoms of the clear air spaces between the cumulus for a few seconds
at a time. For an hour and 8 minutes we were anything except straight
and level. Now why would I remember something like that down to the
minute? :-)) I had vertigo so bad I had to use my finger to point to
each instrument, but it was so rough I kept missing. Then I'd set
there trying to remember which instrument I'd been after. GAWD but I
was sick. My instructor just sat over on the right side with an
occasional finger thump on the yoke to remind me to go up, down,
right, or left. His comment after the flight was the same as your
question.

After about 15 minutes the nausea went away to be replaced by the most
GAWD AFFUL head ache I can remember. An hour and 8 minutes after
entering the crap we popped out the side of a bigggg cumulus with
nothing but clear sky ahead. I turned around and looked up, and up,
and up, then scrunched down in the seat so I could look up even
farther. My remark: "We just came out of that!" Instructor's bored
sounding remark: "Sorta looks that way."

Are there instruments that indicate the direction and magnitude of net
accelerations in the aircraft, so that you can visually see if you are
holding 1 G or more in a loop?

Most aerobatic aircraft have a G meter which indicates negative and
positive G but only in the vertical axis of the airplane. Typically
you use the G meter for some maneuver entry forces and to keep from
breaking in the airplane.


Anyway, these accelerations are another reason why I'm not too keen on
flying for real. Some are pleasant enough, such as standard movements
on take-off, but bouncing around in turbulence or certain unexpected
movements of the aircraft are quite unpleasant. I've only been queasy
once on a commercial aircraft, but that was mainly because I was very
tired but could not sleep (as a passenger, obviously). The statistics
I've seen show that less than 0.1% of passengers experience motion
sickness; I don't know what the figure is for pilots.

I think they were all on the one flight I took. :-)) It was the 6:30
AM flight out of Denver for Cleveland (737). We hit the jet stream
interface right after breakfast. There were only a couple of empty
seats. Seams like it was only one and all but about 10 of us got sick.


Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be useful to have a drug that
eliminates all sense of motion for instrument flying. That way you
could watch your instruments without being influenced by what your
semicircular canals are saying.

As a pilot you aren't even allowed to take Dramamine. Which after
flying home from Marysville KS my wife marked "That Dramamine is
wonderful stuff!". We took off into winds of 30 G 50 and had over a
100 knot tail wind at 500 feet.RNAV said we were moving 250 but that
was from a VOR about 30 degrees to our left.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Mxsmanic wrote:
RK Henry writes:

No, you can't. Feeling the movement is entirely the point.

That's a matter of individual preference. For instrument flight,
feeling the movement is not only unnecessary, but potentially
hazardous, if it distracts attention from what the instruments are
saying.

You still need to feel the movement. The important part is IGNORING it,
something which you would not be able to do with MSFS experience.

Emily writes:

You still need to feel the movement. The important part is IGNORING it,
something which you would not be able to do with MSFS experience.

Unfortunately, full-motion simulators are expensive (and anyone asking
to use them is likely to be considered a terrorist nowadays).

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