End of Season Sunset Warning for SSA-OLC Participants

588 wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:

...I would be in favor of an OLC rule that requires landing by
sunset to avoid giving an advantage to the few gliders with lights,
and to discourage pilots from adding lights.

How about a limit on span? No untoward advantage must accrue to those
who do simply because they can do.

I think span is reasonably compensated by the handicap factor. The fact
that OLC is handicapped is what makes it interesting. I have a 1979
glider with fixed gear, and I can still be competitive. So can an SGS
1-26. The handicap levels the playing field enough to make OLC all
inclusive. I think allowing night flying would give too much advantage
to newer motorgliders ordered with lights, and would put the vast
majority of the existing fleet without lights at a severe disadvantage.

"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
oups.com...

I think allowing night flying would give too much advantage
to newer motorgliders ordered with lights, and would put the vast
majority of the existing fleet without lights at a severe disadvantage.

This "I think" example pretty much sums up the rulemaking "process" on the
SSA-OLC. Despite the long existing OLC rule that clearly *allows* night
flight (if and as permitted by local regulations), we here can "I think" of
a new rule and start applying (or not applying) it when and where we see
fit.

Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
oups.com...

I think allowing night flying would give too much advantage
to newer motorgliders ordered with lights, and would put the vast
majority of the existing fleet without lights at a severe disadvantage.

This "I think" example pretty much sums up the rulemaking "process" on the
SSA-OLC. Despite the long existing OLC rule that clearly *allows* night
flight (if and as permitted by local regulations), we here can "I think" of
a new rule and start applying (or not applying) it when and where we see
fit.

No, the "I think" means that I am expressing my personal opinion only.
The rest of your statement is your personal opionon only. It's also
incorrect.

Eric Greenwell wrote:

I have a 36 ah battery, so I could add lights without too much trouble,
but I think the OLC would be better if I had to land before sunset.


I propose a limit on battery capacity of 12 ah. And that includes the
9-volt in your EDS.

Marc Ramsey wrote:
There is a defined process for changing the Sporting Code, involving
public notifications, votes at more than one plenary session, discussion
amongst delegates, etc. This is intended to provide stability, such
that if one goes to the trouble of, say, adding position lights to their
glider, they don't have to worry that some people sitting around a table
three months later will arbitrarily change the rules on them. With
respect, I wish the same could be said of the SSA...

I don't see this as any kind of rules change. The SSA stated a postion
last year that it is unsportsmanlike to break FARs. The SSA will not
enforce these rules, but suggests we strive to police ourselves.

I am taking it on faith that Doug is not scanning logs for violations,
but is responding to individuals bringing particular flights to his
attention.

-Tom

Marc Ramsey wrote:


...they don't have to worry that some people sitting around a table
three months later will arbitrarily change the rules on them. With
respect, I wish the same could be said of the SSA.

The SSA hasn't changed the OLC rules. They have added a capability to
examine apparent rule breaking that did not previously exist in the OLC
-- a standard and capability not so different from the process in
contests -- and a standard any responsible organization must maintain.

Where's the beef?



Jack

588 wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:


...they don't have to worry that some people sitting around a table
three months later will arbitrarily change the rules on them. With
respect, I wish the same could be said of the SSA.

The SSA hasn't changed the OLC rules. They have added a capability to
examine apparent rule breaking that did not previously exist in the OLC
-- a standard and capability not so different from the process in
contests -- and a standard any responsible organization must maintain.

The contest standards are explicitly written into the contest rules, and
are changed via a somewhat transparent process on a known schedule. The
SSA-OLC standards are bit more murky, particularly when you consider
that the "SSA Position Concerning FAR Violations on Badge, Record, and
OLC Flights" is inconsistent with OLC "US Specific Rules", and both are
inconsistent with certain actions that were apparently taken.

Where's the beef?

This is usenet, who needs beef?

"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
ups.com...

Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until someone dies to
address this.


I've flown my previous glider, a Stemme S10-VT, in wave at night. A most
beautiful and memorable flight. Fields? Dangerous? I stayed within easy
gliding distance of airports with pilot controlled lighting. The Stemme was
equipped with the required position and anit-collision (strobe) lights.

bumper

I agree that night flight withing gliding distance of a lighted airport
is not that dangerous(I would probably do it if I could). That is why I
commented specifically about night cross-country flight in gliders.
Night VFR in airplanes has been shown to be many times more dangerous
than Day VFR in the accident record. I would only expect the situation
to be worse without an engine running.

bumper wrote:
"Doug Haluza" wrote in message
ups.com...

Obviously, night cross country
in gliders is very dangerous, due to the possibility of an outlanding
in a dark field, so I hope we don't have to wait until someone dies to
address this.


I've flown my previous glider, a Stemme S10-VT, in wave at night. A most
beautiful and memorable flight. Fields? Dangerous? I stayed within easy
gliding distance of airports with pilot controlled lighting. The Stemme was
equipped with the required position and anit-collision (strobe) lights.

bumper

Doug Haluza wrote:
I agree that night flight withing gliding distance of a lighted airport
is not that dangerous(I would probably do it if I could). That is why I
commented specifically about night cross-country flight in gliders.
Night VFR in airplanes has been shown to be many times more dangerous
than Day VFR in the accident record. I would only expect the situation
to be worse without an engine running.

The vast majority of landings after legal sunset are the result of long
final glides that started before sunset. These are not "night
cross-country flight", except in the legal sense, and would likely have
aborted much earlier if there was doubt about reaching the destination
airport. Legally, they absolutely should be equipped with position
lights, but it is hardly dangerous (and I know of a few people who have
installed lights for precisely this reason). In fact there are a few
places (Tonopah comes to mind) where it would be more dangerous to abort
the final glide at sunset, and try to find someplace else to land, than
it would be to just continue...

Marc