Flaps on take-off and landing

B A R R Y wrote:
Ross Richardson wrote:


During my commerical check ride I was coming up
a little short on a similated engine out and pointed the nose down to
gain airspeed. Work just find and landed right on the numbers.


I'm guessing that you were below best glide speed at the time?

I was on very short final and didn't look like I would make it
otherwise. That is why I like to plan high now and slip.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

Jim Macklin wrote:
Johnson Bar


You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or ditch
that you see at the last moment before a forced landing if
they are up for the glide.

If you have ones that react fast. I loved the "johnson-bar"
flaps in the 170's and early 172's. In the electric flapped
172's it is doubtful you could pull that manouver. The Navion
hydraulic flaps are even slower.

True, different airplanes have different characteristics.
The early Helio Couriers had two hand cranks on the ceiling
on a concentric shaft. The small handle was for trim and
the longer handle was for the flaps. The Helio could
take-off with the full span flaps [just a very few feet lost
to ailerons, spoilers being primary roll control]. Helio
even had instructions in their flight manual for the H295 on
how to take-off when the mud was over the top of the tires
[ a real soft field]. Full flaps, full throttle and pump
the elevator full forward and aft would cause the airplane
to climb out of the mud and then take-off.

On dry ground the H295 would take-off in as little as two
airplane lengths. The factory had a grass strip next to the
assembly building. They would land and take-off day in and
out, from the 300 feet of grass, even with straight EDO
floats.



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| Johnson Bar
|
|
| You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or
ditch
| that you see at the last moment before a forced landing
if
| they are up for the glide.
|
| If you have ones that react fast. I loved the
"johnson-bar"
| flaps in the 170's and early 172's. In the electric
flapped
| 172's it is doubtful you could pull that manouver. The
Navion
| hydraulic flaps are even slower.
|

Jim Macklin wrote:
On dry ground the H295 would take-off in as little as two
airplane lengths. The factory had a grass strip next to the
assembly building. They would land and take-off day in and
out, from the 300 feet of grass, even with straight EDO
floats.



Jungle Aviation and Radio Service has their own field in Waxhaw, NC called
JAARS-Townsend. I used to go over there just to watch the Helio Courier pilots
do their stuff. It was absolutely amazing.

They'd stand on the brakes, go to full power, pop the tail up in one length, and
be airborne in another. I suspect you could sprint alongside it and keep up for
a few seconds.

The Helio didn't just climb out of impossibly short strips... it had six seats
and could carry a load.

JAARS is a missionary outfit, if anybody wonders. They used to have missions in
New Guinea and down in South America... don't know about now. They also
operated DC-3s and some other birds (can't remember now).




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

They are an amazing airplane. In some parts of the world,
Helio floatplanes operate as long as the floats are level
and the top is not under water. The level part is a good
idea because it check balance [CG] but the floats are over
sized so they do get a little heavy.


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| On dry ground the H295 would take-off in as little as
two
| airplane lengths. The factory had a grass strip next to
the
| assembly building. They would land and take-off day in
and
| out, from the 300 feet of grass, even with straight EDO
| floats.
|
|
|
| Jungle Aviation and Radio Service has their own field in
Waxhaw, NC called
| JAARS-Townsend. I used to go over there just to watch the
Helio Courier pilots
| do their stuff. It was absolutely amazing.
|
| They'd stand on the brakes, go to full power, pop the tail
up in one length, and
| be airborne in another. I suspect you could sprint
alongside it and keep up for
| a few seconds.
|
| The Helio didn't just climb out of impossibly short
strips... it had six seats
| and could carry a load.
|
| JAARS is a missionary outfit, if anybody wonders. They
used to have missions in
| New Guinea and down in South America... don't know about
now. They also
| operated DC-3s and some other birds (can't remember now).
|
|
|
|
| --
| Mortimer Schnerd, RN
| mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
|
|

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:


Jungle Aviation and Radio Service has their own field in Waxhaw, NC called
JAARS-Townsend. I used to go over there just to watch the Helio Courier pilots
do their stuff. It was absolutely amazing.

They'd stand on the brakes, go to full power, pop the tail up in one length, and
be airborne in another. I suspect you could sprint alongside it and keep up for
a few seconds.

The Helio didn't just climb out of impossibly short strips... it had six seats
and could carry a load.

JAARS is a missionary outfit, if anybody wonders. They used to have missions in
New Guinea and down in South America... don't know about now. They also
operated DC-3s and some other birds (can't remember now).

Still doing it. See http://www.jaars.org/aviation04/avia_home.shtml

They use a short-field landing technique in the Helio that
involves a minimum approach speed, touchdown on the mains, raise the
tail high, use a little power to maintain elevator authority and use
heavy braking, keeping the tail way high to get rid of the lift and put
lots of weight on the mains. The prop isn't far off the surface. I was
taught the same thing in the 185, and it'll stop in way under published
figures. Very unnerving the first few times.
Those Helios are pretty old, and JAARS has been
manufacturing parts for them under FAA-PMA approval to keep them alive.
They also have serial number 1 in their fleet. They will soon start
replacing them with the Quest Kodiak.

Dan

Dan

Jim Macklin wrote:
But the flaps move the center of lift aft on the wing and
you need back elevator pressure to force the main gear
(trike) or tailwheel on the ground to prevent weather vaning
and skidding the wheels under braking. The flaps will tend
to lift the lift the tail and you need to follow through on
the flare to lever the balance point on the main gear.

Airplanes like the 150, 172 and 182 will pitch up on flap
application. The downwash off the flaps stikes the stab and pushes the
tail down. A 185 or Glastar will pitch down; I suppose the lower
position of the stab has something to do with it.

I once owned an Auster AOP 6. It had no pitch change with
flap application, and those flaps were serious big Zap flaps. The
elevator had two trim tabs: one was the usual manually-operated tab,
and the other was connected to the flap mechanism to zero out any pitch
changes when the flaps were raised or lowered. That old airplane would
land in 200' (half of book figures) if an approach was made at 1.1 Vso
and the Johnson-bar flaps were suddenly raised just before the wheels
hit the grass. Why did we need to put electric flaps in small
airplanes? Same technique works in the 185.
The Auster's brakes, on the other hand, were less than
enthusiastic, so one could clamp them on before touchdown and really
get ahead of the game.
Not that I'm recommending that Auster owners go try it...

Dan

The Beech T tails are very nice to fly, big enough and out
of prop and downwash.


wrote in message
ups.com...
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| But the flaps move the center of lift aft on the wing
and
| you need back elevator pressure to force the main gear
| (trike) or tailwheel on the ground to prevent weather
vaning
| and skidding the wheels under braking. The flaps will
tend
| to lift the lift the tail and you need to follow through
on
| the flare to lever the balance point on the main gear.
|
| Airplanes like the 150, 172 and 182 will pitch up
on flap
| application. The downwash off the flaps stikes the stab
and pushes the
| tail down. A 185 or Glastar will pitch down; I suppose the
lower
| position of the stab has something to do with it.
|
| I once owned an Auster AOP 6. It had no pitch
change with
| flap application, and those flaps were serious big Zap
flaps. The
| elevator had two trim tabs: one was the usual
manually-operated tab,
| and the other was connected to the flap mechanism to zero
out any pitch
| changes when the flaps were raised or lowered. That old
airplane would
| land in 200' (half of book figures) if an approach was
made at 1.1 Vso
| and the Johnson-bar flaps were suddenly raised just before
the wheels
| hit the grass. Why did we need to put electric flaps in
small
| airplanes? Same technique works in the 185.
| The Auster's brakes, on the other hand, were less
than
| enthusiastic, so one could clamp them on before touchdown
and really
| get ahead of the game.
| Not that I'm recommending that Auster owners go
try it...
|
| Dan
|