Is rudder required for coordinated turns?

Robert M. Gary wrote:
It depends on the plane. High performance planes almost always have
rudder interconnect. Planes like Arrows, Mooneys, Bonanzas, etc

My Beech Sundowner has an interconnect, but you still need a tad of input.

I'm pretty sure Arrows don't have an interconnect, but I only know about
the standard version, not the T-tail.

Mxsmanic wrote:

Is it always necessary to use the rudder to execute a coordinated
turn? When I turn (in simulation) it seems that just rolling the
aircraft suffices, as long as the bank angle isn't too steep. (And
no, I don't have automatic rudder control enabled.)

What plane are you using? If I turn off auto rudder control with the
Cessna 172, the little ball is all over the place.

Marc

Marc Adler writes:

What plane are you using?

I've been flying the Baron 58 and the 737 from the stock game, plus
the Dreamfleet Bonanza A36 and the PMDG 737-800. In all cases,
standard, gradual turns don't seem to require much rudder input, even
with auto rudder control turned off.

I did look at the A36 from the outside while moving the stick, and the
rudder doesn't move. So presumably the loose connection that the real
aircraft has between ailerons and rudder is not being simulated, but
I'm not really sure (it could be simulated without the video, although
that's unlikely--or it could be so gentle that it's hard to see
movement in the rudder).

If I turn off auto rudder control with the
Cessna 172, the little ball is all over the place.

I see the ball move occasionally, but not much. I tend to make
gradual turns, though, especially in large aircraft. (Remember that I
flew MSFS with just a keyboard for 15 years, and that teaches you to
be gentle.)

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Mxsmanic wrote:

I see the ball move occasionally, but not much. I tend to make
gradual turns, though, especially in large aircraft. (Remember that I
flew MSFS with just a keyboard for 15 years, and that teaches you to
be gentle.)

I always fly out of one airport (KAUS) with the weather set to
real-time and the time of day the current time of day (because that's
the airport where (I'm assuming) I'll learn to fly), so maybe the wind
conditions affect performance, because even on level flight the ball in
the inclinometer is hard to keep in place.

Incidentally, speaking of input devices, do any people here who use a
yoke* and who also actually fly think the yoke is more realistic (and
therefore worth the price tag) than the joystick?

Marc

*e.g.:
http://www.pilotshop.com/flight-yoke...4bf5edfca0c21b

Marc,

because even on level flight the ball in
the inclinometer is hard to keep in place.

Have you compared realism settings yet? Also, in the bigger aircraft,
the ball will move less.


Incidentally, speaking of input devices, do any people here who use a
yoke* and who also actually fly think the yoke is more realistic (and
therefore worth the price tag) than the joystick?


As long as the yoke also has engine controls, I'd say yes, it's worth
it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:

Have you compared realism settings yet? Also, in the bigger aircraft,
the ball will move less.

I have the realism settings set to maximum.

As long as the yoke also has engine controls, I'd say yes, it's worth
it.

My Christmas list is growing like a tapeworm... g

Marc

Mxsmanic wrote
I've been flying the Baron 58 and the 737 from the stock game

All swept wing airliners that I am familiar with (Boeings) have
a full time yaw damper that keeps the rudder where it belongs at
all times. The airplanes make perfectly coordinated turns with
one's feet flat on the floor. :-)

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727
PanAm (retired)

Bob Moore writes:

All swept wing airliners that I am familiar with (Boeings) have
a full time yaw damper that keeps the rudder where it belongs at
all times. The airplanes make perfectly coordinated turns with
one's feet flat on the floor. :-)

I thought a yaw damper was just intended to prevent dutch roll.

At least on the 737-800, the yaw damper can be turned on or off at
pilot discretion.

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Mxsmanic wrote
At least on the 737-800, the yaw damper can be turned on or off at
pilot discretion.

Turned ON and OFF...Yes, but hardly at the pilot's discretion.

I have no 737 experience, but the 727 has 2 rudders and 2 yaw
dampers. If just one of them fails, the pilot must descend below
30,000' and slow to a specified maximum speed, just in case the
other one should fail also.

Bob Moore

"Rudder" is required to make coordinated rolls into banks in most aircraft.
The next question would be: is the rudder applied automatically by the
movement of the lateral controls? If not, then the pilot may have to
displace the rudder himself. Some aircraft have rudder input applied
automatically when the control column/stick is displaced.

One example of that is the B-58 which has a rudder/elevon interconnect which
uses a computer to determine when, if, how much, and in what direction the
rudder should be moved when the pilot makes a lateral input to the elevons.
In subsonic flight the rudder is normally displaced in the same direction as
the lateral input. In transonic flight the shock wave hits the vertical
stabilizer producing a "rudder" force which has to be corrected. At some
speeds the rudder is actually moved in the opposite direction since the
shockwave force on the vertical stabilizer produces more "rudder" input that
is desirable. The automatic rudder input changes more as the aircraft
accelerates to mach 2.

The B-52 is different also, in that the H model (that I flew) has no
ailerons and uses hydraulic spoilers on the top of the wings to produce the
required roll input. With no speed brakes deployed a roll input causes the
spoilers on the downward moving wing to be deployed, spoiling lift and
dropping the wing. The resultant drag makes a rudder input in that
direction to not be required. Because the spoilers are aft of the center of
lift, deploying a spoiler on a clean wing also causes an undesired pitch up.
In the traffic pattern speed brakes are normally deployed to an intermediate
position. In this case a roll input to the left will cause the left
speedbrake/spoilers to rise further and the right speedbrake/spoilers to
lower somewhat. This about eliminates the pitchup and makes flying more
stable.

That said, most aircraft require a pilot input of rudder to coordinate a
roll input. Little, if any, rudder is required once the roll stops and a
constant bank is maintained. Fancier aircraft have yaw dampers which also
reduces the required pilot rudder input. So, to answer your original
question it is necessary to change your question somewhat. Change the word
"turns" to "rolls", since most rudder coordination is necessary only while
rolling into a bank and little is needed once bank is established to further
coordinate the turn while bank stays constant. In light aircraft the amount
of wing dihedral can affect turn coordination.
--
Darrell R. Schmidt
B-58 Hustler Web Site URL (below)
http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Is it always necessary to use the rudder to execute a coordinated
turn? When I turn (in simulation) it seems that just rolling the
aircraft suffices, as long as the bank angle isn't too steep. (And
no, I don't have automatic rudder control enabled.)

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.