Beacons/anticollision lights and engines

Mxsmanic wrote:
RK Henry writes:

1. In FARs part 1.1, Definitions, "Operate" is defined:

"Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to use or
authorize to use aircraft, for the purpose (except as provided in
§91.13 of this chapter) of air navigation including the piloting of
aircraft, with or without the right of legal control (as owner,
lessee, or otherwise)."

I don't see the word "engine" anywhere in the quoted text--again.

It's best to read what regulations say, and not try to guess what
you'd like them to mean. Legal documents are generally explicit;
imagination is neither required nor recommended.

If you're planning on using the airplane for flying, I'd interpret
that as beginning with the moment you turn the key 'til the airplane
is back in the hangar.

So it's your interpretation; it's not written in the regulations.



You are such a little cock wad. If you are starting the aircraft to fly
you are operating the aircraft.

Actually the FAA means , in the paragraph you cited, that
"operate" means use an airplane in a business or otherwise
have the control of the airplane. It does not mean that the
engine is running.


"RK Henry" wrote in message
...
| On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 20:52:59 +0200, Mxsmanic

| wrote:
|
| RK Henry writes:
|
| Yes it does. In the excerpt here, "Operate" means
running the engines.
|
| According to whom?
|
| 1. In FARs part 1.1, Definitions, "Operate" is defined:
|
| "Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to
use or
| authorize to use aircraft, for the purpose (except as
provided in
| §91.13 of this chapter) of air navigation including the
piloting of
| aircraft, with or without the right of legal control (as
owner,
| lessee, or otherwise)."
|
| If you're planning on using the airplane for flying, I'd
interpret
| that as beginning with the moment you turn the key 'til
the airplane
| is back in the hangar. I suppose it could exclude running
the engine
| at the shop, since that's not for the purpose of air
navigation, but
| the mechanics usually turn on the beacon too.
|
| 2. The mention in the AIM about lights isn't regulatory,
but it may as
| well be. It's good operating practice, and a pilot
ignoring good
| operating practice could conceivably be caught by the
catch-all
| regulation, FAR 91.13, Careless or reckless operation.
Especially if
| someone got hurt. And of course, none of us wants anyone
to get hurt.
|
| Running the anti-collision system is low-cost insurance.
Except for
| cases like not operating strobes around people, it's
better to just go
| ahead and use it. It could save someone's life.
|
| RK Henry

It means all that and more. It's an all-purpose definition intended to
be plugged into wherever the term is found in the regulations.

I found a source on AOPA's site. I won't reproduce it here, but AOPA
members can search for it as article 352. It says that the pilot must
turn on the anti-collision lights whenever he "operates" [their
quotes] the aircraft, which means every time he starts the engine. I
consider that a fairly authoritative source, though not as
authoritative as the FAA, of course.

RK Henry

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 19:09:14 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
wrote:

Actually the FAA means , in the paragraph you cited, that
"operate" means use an airplane in a business or otherwise
have the control of the airplane. It does not mean that the
engine is running.


"RK Henry" wrote in message
.. .
| On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 20:52:59 +0200, Mxsmanic

| wrote:
|
| RK Henry writes:
|
| Yes it does. In the excerpt here, "Operate" means
running the engines.
|
| According to whom?
|
| 1. In FARs part 1.1, Definitions, "Operate" is defined:
|
| "Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to
use or
| authorize to use aircraft, for the purpose (except as
provided in
| §91.13 of this chapter) of air navigation including the
piloting of
| aircraft, with or without the right of legal control (as
owner,
| lessee, or otherwise)."
|
| If you're planning on using the airplane for flying, I'd
interpret
| that as beginning with the moment you turn the key 'til
the airplane
| is back in the hangar. I suppose it could exclude running
the engine
| at the shop, since that's not for the purpose of air
navigation, but
| the mechanics usually turn on the beacon too.
|
| 2. The mention in the AIM about lights isn't regulatory,
but it may as
| well be. It's good operating practice, and a pilot
ignoring good
| operating practice could conceivably be caught by the
catch-all
| regulation, FAR 91.13, Careless or reckless operation.
Especially if
| someone got hurt. And of course, none of us wants anyone
to get hurt.
|
| Running the anti-collision system is low-cost insurance.
Except for
| cases like not operating strobes around people, it's
better to just go
| ahead and use it. It could save someone's life.
|
| RK Henry

Mxsmanic wrote:
Emily writes:

Can't he just read the regulations? He's obviously got access to
internet.

§ 91.209 Aircraft lights.

No person may:

(a) During the period from sunset to sunrise (or, in Alaska, during the
period a prominent unlighted object cannot be seen from a distance of 3
statute miles or the sun is more than 6 degrees below the horizon)—

(1) Operate an aircraft unless it has lighted position lights;
^^^^^^^

(2) Park or move an aircraft in, or in dangerous proximity to, a night
^^^^
flight operations area of an airport unless the aircraft—

(i) Is clearly illuminated;

(ii) Has lighted position lights; or

(iii) is in an area that is marked by obstruction lights;

(3) Anchor an aircraft unless the aircraft—

(i) Has lighted anchor lights; or

(ii) Is in an area where anchor lights are not required on vessels; or

(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light
system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the
anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command
determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the
interest of safety to turn the lights off.

Nothing in this quoted section mentions engines, so it doesn't answer
my question.

How is it possible to operate an aircraft without an engine that
is in operation?

On the other hand, no reply from anyone here will satisfy your questions.

Obviously, non-stop simming on MSFS has removed any and all common
sense from you. And, you obviously have no concept of "logic"

"Blanche Cohen" wrote in message
...
How is it possible to operate an aircraft without an engine that
is in operation?

Well, for one...operate an aircraft that has no engine at all.

There may be other ways. But I'd think the above would be a sufficient
counter-example for you.

The regulation does NOT say anything about engine operation, nor does the
definition of "operate" per the FAA. It's true that engine start and
aircraft operation are closely related, but the regulation isn't about
engines, it's about aircraft.

Inasmuch as an operation can take place at a different time than engine
start, the former is what the regulation is talking about, not the latter.

Pete

Blanche Cohen writes:

How is it possible to operate an aircraft without an engine that
is in operation?

You'll have to ask glider pilots about that.

On the other hand, no reply from anyone here will satisfy your questions.

Quotations of regulations need to at least mention the subject of my
queries. Many people seem to believe that their own personal
interpretation of regulations has the same force of law as the
regulations themselves, but that is not the case.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

In rec.aviation.student Mxsmanic wrote:
Blanche Cohen writes:

How is it possible to operate an aircraft without an engine that
is in operation?

You'll have to ask glider pilots about that.

On the other hand, no reply from anyone here will satisfy your questions.

Quotations of regulations need to at least mention the subject of my
queries. Many people seem to believe that their own personal
interpretation of regulations has the same force of law as the
regulations themselves, but that is not the case.

Regulations are written to get the maximum meaning in the fewest words.
Sometimes that requires one to make some common sense interpretation of
the words. You seem to want "operation" to mean "when the wheels turn" or
perhaps "when the wheels leave the ground". Most of us think it means
"when the engine starts" (for planes with engines). Arguing over a
definition like this is a common, yet tiring, USENET exercise. It's
especially tiring when the entire thread is posted to multiple groups.
Followups set to RAS.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

--
Don Poitras

"Don Poitras" wrote in message
...
Regulations are written to get the maximum meaning in the fewest words.

You base that assertion on what? The FARs certainly don't bear that out.
There's plenty of verbiage there, much of it excess if one takes the
position that one must make inferences with respect to definitions of words
in the regulations.

Sometimes that requires one to make some common sense interpretation of
the words.

One does need to occasionally use "common sense" definitions, yes. However,
when the FAA has provided a definition (as they have here), that is not
required.

You seem to want "operation" to mean "when the wheels turn" or
perhaps "when the wheels leave the ground". Most of us think it means
"when the engine starts" (for planes with engines).

YOU seem to want "operation" to mean "when the engine starts". This isn't
how the FAA defines it, nor does it make any sense that the FAA would write
a regulation that applies to all aircraft, but have some sort of implicit
exclusion for powered aircraft in which only "engine start" defines the
course of operation.

What happens with a motor glider? Is the aircraft not being operated when
the engine is shut down in flight? How about a regular powered airplane?
Does shutting the engine down in flight allow the pilot to stop using
anticollision lights? What about a balloon? Are lights required only when
the burner is operating?

Arguing over a
definition like this is a common, yet tiring, USENET exercise.

It's especially tiring when the FAA has already provided a definition, and
yet people insist that their definition is incomplete or that one should
infer additional meaning beyond that provided in the official definition.

It's
especially tiring when the entire thread is posted to multiple groups.
Followups set to RAS.

If you think that your comments and replies to them belong only in
r.a.student, then don't post your comments to another newsgroup in the first
place.

Pete

Recently, Mxsmanic posted:

Blanche Cohen writes:

How is it possible to operate an aircraft without an engine that
is in operation?

You'll have to ask glider pilots about that.

On the other hand, no reply from anyone here will satisfy your
questions.

Quotations of regulations need to at least mention the subject of my
queries. Many people seem to believe that their own personal
interpretation of regulations has the same force of law as the
regulations themselves, but that is not the case.

The subject of your query was stated:
"I understand that one normally turns on beacons or anticollision lights
whenever an aircraft's engines are running. Is this a regulation, or just
a polite custom?"

Note that YOU were the one that set the parameters that the "aircraft's
engines are running", therefore, the regs quoted directly answered your
original question, as the PIC is always "operating an aircraft" if the
engines are running, and therefore it is not "just a polite custom". Once
again, you choose to argue rather than learn.

Neil

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
. com...
Note that YOU were the one that set the parameters that the "aircraft's
engines are running", therefore, the regs quoted directly answered your
original question, as the PIC is always "operating an aircraft" if the
engines are running, and therefore it is not "just a polite custom".

The PIC is NOT "always 'operating an aircraft' if the engines are running".
The FAA specifically defines "operate" to relate to "air navigation". There
is nothing in the definition that suggests that simply having the engine
running constitutes "operating".

Is it a good idea to turn on the anticollision lights if you've got the
engine running? Sure, especially if you are going to move the airplane (for
example, taxiing from one spot on the ground to another). Is it a
regulatory requirement? No, it is not. If you are not engaged in "air
navigation", you are not "operating" the aircraft as far as the FARs are
concerned.

Once again, you choose to argue rather than learn.

Seems to me, that accusation is more appropriately leveled at many of the
other participants in this thread, this time.

Pete