Airbus 380

Interesting discussion about "fast" gliders. I imagine there's a bunch of
jet jockys rolling on the floor laughing. How about 180 knots over the
fantail trying for the third wire on an 700 foot 'runway'.

The fastest landing glider in common use is the (very) old 2-32. The 2-32
POH provides little guidance on approach speeds but if the airspeed
indicator had one of those little yellow triangles showing minimum approach
speed, it would be around 75MPH. Most pilots respect the 2-32 enough to fly
the pattern around 80 - 90 MPH. I haven't got the guts to let the approach
speed get below 80. No glass glider I know of lands that fast.

In fact, I'd say that it's more likely that a less-skilled pilot would get
in trouble flying a too-fast approach in a slick glass ship.

Bill Daniels


"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
newsr95h.67$8u1.2@trndny04...
wrote:

Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
glass gliders. Stop training in those.

I have 5000 hours in glass gliders, and I still think they're "hot". I
loved landing my Ka-6e or our club's Blanik, because they had great speed
control (speed limiting brakes) and seemed to land at a walking pace. What
a comfort during an off-field landing. Next best was my ASW 20 with 40
degree landing flaps - landed faster, of course, but nothing like my Std
Cirrus or the motorglider I fly now.

I know there are people that don't go cross country because their glass
ship lands fast, and this disturbs them enough they don't have the
confidence to risk an off-airport landing. I haven't kept track of what
these people learned in, so I can't say starting in a faster glider would
have made the difference.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

bagmaker wrote:
..../...

To insist that newcomers start in an old tin or wooden warhorse may
well kill any interest and passion for flying in the first place!

Well said. I'm a case in point.

My background is over 30 years flying competitive Free Flight model gliders.

Back in the late 80s or early 90s I was at a couple of trial flight
evenings with ASK-13s as the aircraft. I enjoyed the evenings, but never
had the urge to learn to fly.

In 1999 during an aviation related holiday I took a trial flight in an
ASK-21 and was instantly hooked. I spent the winter researching local
clubs and joined up in spring 2000. My club's fleet is all glass and
I've never looked back, learning in ASK-21, G103 and Puchacz, then
working up the club fleet through Juniors to Pegase and Discus.

Currently I own a lightly Streifenedered Standard Libelle and love it to
bits.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Shawn wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college
kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money
out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear
from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However
this is a subset of the population that is already interested in
soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by
cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost.
Bicycling may be too expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the
time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about
our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't
the price, it's marketing.


Shawn

I will agree with you up to a point. "MONEY" in the sense is not just
money...it is the time involved, it is the atmosphere of your
surroundings, it is the people they interact with...all of that
combined together is a "COST". Take a look at skydiving centers...young
person walks in and is greeted and treated as equal...and then they
train you how to throw yourself out of an airplane and you have
fun...or you get a skateboard or surfboard....and when it comes to the
end of the day, they seat down, open a bottle of wine, whiskey, beer,
they play loud music, etc....some people in our sport were "annoyed"
because I was too noisy...I speak loud, I like to listen to a loud
music, I like to drink wine and whiskey and eat whatever I want to and
the dinosaurs are saying to me "you are obnoxious" because they like to
whip their 100+ ships, fly around for a while, land and seat and talk
about old times very quietly, they have no sense of humor....what is
there that will attract more young potential pilots? Nothing,
absolutely nothing. The only thing is I don't care about what people
are thinking about me...I have my own ships, I can travel and I am not
old yet...but when I grow old (it can happen at any age) someone will
have to kick my rear end to bring me back to my youthful setting....
When it comes to a tow I agree that besides tow planes winches would be
an excellent addition to our training...I designed one....someone wants
to built one...I can do it....

Jacek
Washington State

"Shawn" wrote in message
. ..
Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships
the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I
recall
one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
happens.


"Tony" wrote in message
ups.com...
They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with
landing
witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was
and
am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.

Jacek

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.


I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State


I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a
new ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass
gliders are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than
they attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a
winch and keep the glass gliders.

The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college kids
rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money out
there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear from
people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However this
is a subset of the population that is already interested in soaring. They
may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by cost would find
the sport financially challenging at half the cost. Bicycling may be too
expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the time,
inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about our
sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't the
price, it's marketing.


Shawn

No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of
soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more
activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if
not less legal pursuits.

On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost
became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

"Shawn" wrote in message
. ..
Bill Daniels wrote:
"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim Vincent wrote:
Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
memberships

No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of
soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more
activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if
not less legal pursuits.

On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost
became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels


I could not agree more with you, Bill.



--

Michel TALON

Bill Daniels wrote:
"Shawn" wrote
Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a
winch and keep the glass gliders.
The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college kids
rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money out
there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear from
people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However this
is a subset of the population that is already interested in soaring. They
may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by cost would find
the sport financially challenging at half the cost. Bicycling may be too
expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the time,
inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about our
sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't the
price, it's marketing.


Shawn

No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of
soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more
activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if
not less legal pursuits.

Sure, but why not market to them, are they too rich? They can subsidize
the kids you mention below.
Works for health care. ;-)

On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost
became overwhelming.

Flying anything with hard wings is expensive. Why not try to draw in
those rich kids looking for something more than their shallow affluent
existence has to offer? Maybe someone can rephrase that in a more
appealing way. ;-)




Shawn

They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10 years,
but I never forgot....

I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't care
less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better yet a
Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are great
aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start out in
the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your last dollar
that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same way. They'll
fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something cool, it means
much more.

When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon, her
first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.


Mark Lenox, CFIG
Chilhowee Gliderport


On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the
cost became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels

My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight thermal
and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!

Mike Schumann

"Mark Lenox" wrote in message
. ..
They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10 years,
but I never forgot....

I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't care
less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better yet a
Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are great
aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start out in
the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your last
dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same way.
They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something cool,
it means much more.

When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon,
her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.


Mark Lenox, CFIG
Chilhowee Gliderport


On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the
cost became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels

Mike Schumann wrote:
My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight thermal
and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!

And I like being in the DG-1000 because I can leave the thermal and fly
both faster and farther than you before needing to thermal again. :-)

That's really just a round about way of making a related point. There's
a substantial number of glider pilots who get stuck in the gap between
taking friends for sled rides and flying cross-country in a fun and safe
manner. Getting people across that gap often helps them stick with
soaring much longer.

Jeremy

Just because you are in an old glider doesn't mean that you can't fly cross
country. One of our club member, Jim Hard, just finished his goal of flying
40K KM in his 1-26 this summer.

The fun of soaring is the challenge. The type of equipment you fly just
changes the challenge. It doesn't necessarily increase or reduce it.

Mike Schumann

"Jeremy Zawodny" wrote in message
...
Mike Schumann wrote:
My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight
thermal and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!

And I like being in the DG-1000 because I can leave the thermal and fly
both faster and farther than you before needing to thermal again. :-)

That's really just a round about way of making a related point. There's a
substantial number of glider pilots who get stuck in the gap between
taking friends for sled rides and flying cross-country in a fun and safe
manner. Getting people across that gap often helps them stick with
soaring much longer.

Jeremy