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#2
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bagmaker wrote:
..../... To insist that newcomers start in an old tin or wooden warhorse may well kill any interest and passion for flying in the first place! Well said. I'm a case in point. My background is over 30 years flying competitive Free Flight model gliders. Back in the late 80s or early 90s I was at a couple of trial flight evenings with ASK-13s as the aircraft. I enjoyed the evenings, but never had the urge to learn to fly. In 1999 during an aviation related holiday I took a trial flight in an ASK-21 and was instantly hooked. I spent the winter researching local clubs and joined up in spring 2000. My club's fleet is all glass and I've never looked back, learning in ASK-21, G103 and Puchacz, then working up the club fleet through Juniors to Pegase and Discus. Currently I own a lightly Streifenedered Standard Libelle and love it to bits. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#3
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![]() Shawn wrote: Bill Daniels wrote: "ASM" wrote in message oups.com... Jim Vincent wrote: Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student memberships the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS. Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it happens. "Tony" wrote in message ups.com... They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing witness documents. Ask me how I know. I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not participating in our sport is simply the direct cost. Jacek They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing witness documents. Ask me how I know. I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5 or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a beautiful sport... Jacek Washington State I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total cost. Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they attract with low costs. Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch and keep the glass gliders. The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However this is a subset of the population that is already interested in soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost. Bicycling may be too expensive for them. The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't the price, it's marketing. Shawn I will agree with you up to a point. "MONEY" in the sense is not just money...it is the time involved, it is the atmosphere of your surroundings, it is the people they interact with...all of that combined together is a "COST". Take a look at skydiving centers...young person walks in and is greeted and treated as equal...and then they train you how to throw yourself out of an airplane and you have fun...or you get a skateboard or surfboard....and when it comes to the end of the day, they seat down, open a bottle of wine, whiskey, beer, they play loud music, etc....some people in our sport were "annoyed" because I was too noisy...I speak loud, I like to listen to a loud music, I like to drink wine and whiskey and eat whatever I want to and the dinosaurs are saying to me "you are obnoxious" because they like to whip their 100+ ships, fly around for a while, land and seat and talk about old times very quietly, they have no sense of humor....what is there that will attract more young potential pilots? Nothing, absolutely nothing. The only thing is I don't care about what people are thinking about me...I have my own ships, I can travel and I am not old yet...but when I grow old (it can happen at any age) someone will have to kick my rear end to bring me back to my youthful setting.... When it comes to a tow I agree that besides tow planes winches would be an excellent addition to our training...I designed one....someone wants to built one...I can do it.... Jacek Washington State |
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![]() "Shawn" wrote in message . .. Bill Daniels wrote: "ASM" wrote in message oups.com... Jim Vincent wrote: Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student memberships the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS. Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it happens. "Tony" wrote in message ups.com... They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing witness documents. Ask me how I know. I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not participating in our sport is simply the direct cost. Jacek They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing witness documents. Ask me how I know. I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5 or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a beautiful sport... Jacek Washington State I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total cost. Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they attract with low costs. Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch and keep the glass gliders. The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However this is a subset of the population that is already interested in soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost. Bicycling may be too expensive for them. The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't the price, it's marketing. Shawn No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if not less legal pursuits. On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost became overwhelming. Bill Daniels |
#5
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Bill Daniels bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Shawn" wrote in message . .. Bill Daniels wrote: "ASM" wrote in message oups.com... Jim Vincent wrote: Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student memberships No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if not less legal pursuits. On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost became overwhelming. Bill Daniels I could not agree more with you, Bill. -- Michel TALON |
#6
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Bill Daniels wrote:
"Shawn" wrote Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch and keep the glass gliders. The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However this is a subset of the population that is already interested in soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost. Bicycling may be too expensive for them. The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't the price, it's marketing. Shawn No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if not less legal pursuits. Sure, but why not market to them, are they too rich? They can subsidize the kids you mention below. Works for health care. ;-) On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost became overwhelming. Flying anything with hard wings is expensive. Why not try to draw in those rich kids looking for something more than their shallow affluent existence has to offer? Maybe someone can rephrase that in a more appealing way. ;-) Shawn |
#7
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They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10 years,
but I never forgot.... I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't care less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better yet a Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are great aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start out in the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your last dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same way. They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something cool, it means much more. When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon, her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it. Mark Lenox, CFIG Chilhowee Gliderport On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost became overwhelming. Bill Daniels |
#8
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My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight thermal
and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000! Mike Schumann "Mark Lenox" wrote in message . .. They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10 years, but I never forgot.... I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't care less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better yet a Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are great aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start out in the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your last dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same way. They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something cool, it means much more. When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon, her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it. Mark Lenox, CFIG Chilhowee Gliderport On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost became overwhelming. Bill Daniels |
#9
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Mike Schumann wrote:
My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight thermal and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000! And I like being in the DG-1000 because I can leave the thermal and fly both faster and farther than you before needing to thermal again. :-) That's really just a round about way of making a related point. There's a substantial number of glider pilots who get stuck in the gap between taking friends for sled rides and flying cross-country in a fun and safe manner. Getting people across that gap often helps them stick with soaring much longer. Jeremy |
#10
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Just because you are in an old glider doesn't mean that you can't fly cross
country. One of our club member, Jim Hard, just finished his goal of flying 40K KM in his 1-26 this summer. The fun of soaring is the challenge. The type of equipment you fly just changes the challenge. It doesn't necessarily increase or reduce it. Mike Schumann "Jeremy Zawodny" wrote in message ... Mike Schumann wrote: My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight thermal and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000! And I like being in the DG-1000 because I can leave the thermal and fly both faster and farther than you before needing to thermal again. :-) That's really just a round about way of making a related point. There's a substantial number of glider pilots who get stuck in the gap between taking friends for sled rides and flying cross-country in a fun and safe manner. Getting people across that gap often helps them stick with soaring much longer. Jeremy |
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