GA is priceless

I agree with you 100% on the convenience and utility of, and the love
of owning, my own airplane. However, to state "I can't understand for
the life of me why there isn't an airplane in every American garage" is
not only a disgusting comment, but one that suggests that you are
totally out of touch with the condition of this country. Sounds like
a person who once commented..."Let them eat cake."

Sadly, the reason GA flying is priced so high is because so few people
actually want to do it. Just like automobiles in the early 1900s,
airplanes today are hand-built, luxury items, with prices to match.

If "Every Man" in America wanted to fly, airplanes would cost about
what a new car costs -- maybe less, given how little structure is
actually involved. (Don't ever look too closely at the stabilator
attachment points on a Cherokee, or the wing spar attachment points on
a Skyhawk, unless you're prepared to be shocked at how little "there"
is actually there.)

Oh, wait -- you *can* buy an airplane for about what a new car costs.
Our old Warrior, which faithfully carried my family from coast to coast
from '98 to '02, cost less than our hotel's courtesy van.

And STILL there isn't a plane in every garage. Why?

Are the proletariat welcome at your motel, or only the AIRPLANE OWNERS?

Sadly, (except for the weeks around Oshkosh, of course) less than 5% of
our guests are pilots, by my count. (A large proportion of that 5%
*are* aircraft owners, however.) Probably another 50% are interested
in aviation, or aviation history -- but pilots are a small, dying
breed, way too small a group to ever support a hotel. Even one as
small as ours... :-(

But Mary and I work on converting each and every one of those "pilot
wannabees" who step into our lobby. I'll set them in the Kiwi, get 'em
shooting an approach into Madeline Island at sunset, and watch the
gears start turning...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

And STILL there isn't a plane in every garage. Why?

Because there isn't an airport at every garage. Change your situation a
bit. Suppose you lived forty miles from work, twenty miles from the
airport, and six miles from the train station that takes you three miles
from where you work. (This is not atypical). Chances are pretty good
you'd get a lot of use out of your car, and your car horn.

Now, imagine you have to give up either your plane or your car. Which
is it going to be?

Of course you can say "well, I'd just move closer to the airport...
yadda yadda", but not everyone can do that. There isn't enough room
even if they wanted to. So, there won't be an airplane in every garage.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Of course you can say "well, I'd just move closer to the airport...
yadda yadda", but not everyone can do that. There isn't enough room
even if they wanted to. So, there won't be an airplane in every garage.

Oh, I know. Until the personal flight vehicle (AKA: "Flying Car") we
were all promised in the 1960s is developed, flying will never be as
popular as driving.

But it sure could be a lot more popular, if even half the guys who
bought boats (that go no where) would divert that time and money into
an airplane (that can take them *anywhere*)...

We simply must figure out a better way to communicate the fun and
utility of flying to the masses.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

But it sure could be a lot more popular, if even half the guys who
bought boats (that go no where) would divert that time and money into
an airplane (that can take them *anywhere*)...

But sometimes "nowhere" is exactly where you want to go. The boat is
ideal for that.

The airplane is not ideal for everything. And not everything you think
is fun is actually fun for everyone.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay Honeck writes:

Oh, I know. Until the personal flight vehicle (AKA: "Flying Car") we
were all promised in the 1960s is developed, flying will never be as
popular as driving.

There won't be any flying cars with the current state of technology.
The only way to make flying safe for large numbers of people would be
to automate it, which isn't likely any time soon.

But it sure could be a lot more popular, if even half the guys who
bought boats (that go no where) would divert that time and money into
an airplane (that can take them *anywhere*)...

Most of our planet is covered by water and is thus navigable by boats.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

That may be part of the reason, but flying was considered expensive in
the late '40's, when I flew with my father, and in the mid '50's, when I
took my first lessons. During that period of time flying was more
popular and romantic, and airplane companies thought they were going to
sell a lot of airplanes. Veterans were getting free flying lessons on
the GI Bill. But it was still expensive to rent and buy and maintain
planes, even then. )-:

Jay Honeck wrote:

Sadly, the reason GA flying is priced so high is because so few people
actually want to do it.

Jay Honeck writes:

Sadly, the reason GA flying is priced so high is because so few people
actually want to do it.

In part, but there are also other obstacles. It's extremely hard to
get a pilot's license as compared to a driver's license, for example
(independent of the extremely high cost).

Oh, wait -- you *can* buy an airplane for about what a new car costs.
Our old Warrior, which faithfully carried my family from coast to coast
from '98 to '02, cost less than our hotel's courtesy van.

Which is more comfortable across country?

And STILL there isn't a plane in every garage. Why?

Too expensive, too difficult, too inconvenient. This limits flying to
the real enthusiasts.

But Mary and I work on converting each and every one of those "pilot
wannabees" who step into our lobby. I'll set them in the Kiwi, get 'em
shooting an approach into Madeline Island at sunset, and watch the
gears start turning...

Until clocks, calendars, and wallets lock those gears in place again.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Oh, wait -- you *can* buy an airplane for about what a new car costs.
Our old Warrior, which faithfully carried my family from coast to coast
from '98 to '02, cost less than our hotel's courtesy van.

Which is more comfortable across country?

Actually, if you're talking cross-country, I'll take the Warrior.
True, it's not as spacious inside, but it's plenty comfortable, and
it'll get you across the country in hours, rather than days.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck writes:

Actually, if you're talking cross-country, I'll take the Warrior.
True, it's not as spacious inside, but it's plenty comfortable, and
it'll get you across the country in hours, rather than days.

Do you sleep inside the aircraft, or do you land it inside the parking
lot of the hotel?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On 28 Dec 2006 09:33:53 -0800, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

I agree with you 100% on the convenience and utility of, and the love
of owning, my own airplane. However, to state "I can't understand for
the life of me why there isn't an airplane in every American garage" is
not only a disgusting comment, but one that suggests that you are
totally out of touch with the condition of this country. Sounds like
a person who once commented..."Let them eat cake."

Sadly, the reason GA flying is priced so high is because so few people
actually want to do it. Just like automobiles in the early 1900s,
airplanes today are hand-built, luxury items, with prices to match.

If "Every Man" in America wanted to fly, airplanes would cost about
what a new car costs -- maybe less, given how little structure is

Unfortunately there are a number of things that doesn't take into
account. One is liability. Reportedly at least half the price of
each new airplane is for liability. Much of an increase in planes
flying and we'd be moving from the more hours we fly the cheaper out
insurance due to proficiency to the more we fly the more we pay due to
exposure.

Another are the regulations and certified parts. Production on a large
scale would reduce the cost of individual parts as the basic cost
would be spread over more numbers.

So, although the idea would certainly bring the price down, I doubt
it'd be possible to ever come close to price of a new car. Maybe on
the order of two to three times to cost.

Another problem would be proficiency: We kill between 40,000 and
50,000 per year with something as simple as the automobile. I doubt
we'd be able to bring many of those people in before we'd see a lot of
restrictive legislation. That is one of the reasons I see the
"personal" aviation, or plane in every garage as pure science fiction
even if NASA has a program working on it.

I seriously doubt that even 10% of the drivers would even be
interested in flying if a new plane cost no more than a new car.
Most people have no interest in flying, and most have no aptitude for
it. Although most of us have at one time or another told at least one
person, that if we could get our license any one could, that is
unfortunately a longggg way from being true. It's not that it takes
superior intelligence to fly as it doesn't, but it does take the
proper mind set, judgmental ability, and willingness to commit. We've
all seen students who just couldn't make the grade be it personality
problems, ability to commit, or the ability to take responsibility.
I'm sure most of us who have been around for a while have seen pilots
that made us wonder how they ever got through the system. Fortunately
for us all those are few. Still if you watch traffic arriving at
Oshkosh for even a day it can alter your view a bit.

Then assuming we get a large influx of new pilots and airplanes, comes
the problem of air space congestion. Busier small airports would mean
more neighborhood resistance. How many more VFR flights could the
class C and D airports take before it became a problem? Soon they'd
either limit VFR traffic into these airports or prohibit it which
would mean still more traffic for the small airports.

I think we could get away with doubling or even tripling the traffic
at our airport, but that would only put us back to where we were in
the 70's and I'll bet the neighbors would be constantly complaining.

actually involved. (Don't ever look too closely at the stabilator
attachment points on a Cherokee, or the wing spar attachment points on
a Skyhawk, unless you're prepared to be shocked at how little "there"
is actually there.)

They are all built like beer cans. Look at the heft in the main spar
itself. It's just a few sheets of aluminum on edge held in place with
caps. On the Bo the front and rear of the wing are held to the spar
with piano wire. Albeit that is a very strong connection.
Two locals were pushing a Cherokee 180 back into a hangar. The door
wasn't quite to the stop and the beacon light atop the tail hit the
door. It folded the rear of the fuselage about three feet forward of
the horizontal stab leading edge.


Oh, wait -- you *can* buy an airplane for about what a new car costs.

You can buy an *old* airplane for the price of a high end car.

Our old Warrior, which faithfully carried my family from coast to coast
from '98 to '02, cost less than our hotel's courtesy van.

Today you are still looking at basically $50,000 to $60,000 for a used
4-place airplane with a few going for a little less. Most aircraft
aren't known for having much shoulder room. The Deb is not bad, but
it sure snug with a couple of good sized guys up front. OTOH when I
last flew the old Cherokee 180 I used to fly I felt cramped and that
is spacious compared to the 172 which is absolutely gigantic compared
to a 150.

Actually in the Deb one of us can take the controls and the other step
over the carry through into the back seats. On long trips we've done
that when we were reminded not so pleasantly that it's much colder in
Michigan than Georgia or Florida. Our jackets and sweaters were in
back. We went from the 80's to just out of the teens in one hop. that
sure did make me appreciate that new heater.


And STILL there isn't a plane in every garage. Why?

There aren't very many of those old airplanes in that price range out
there unless they have many thousands of hours on the airframe. Still
there just aren't a lot of airplanes out there of any kind.

BUT even if we could ignore price completely, as I said earlier,
probably 90% of the drivers have absolutely no interest in flying
regardless of cost. Many of them would not even get in a small plane.
They do not share our view of flying and would rather take a new bass
boat or big SUV and go mudding even if they could get a plane for the
same money.


Are the proletariat welcome at your motel, or only the AIRPLANE OWNERS?

Sadly, (except for the weeks around Oshkosh, of course) less than 5% of
our guests are pilots, by my count. (A large proportion of that 5%
*are* aircraft owners, however.) Probably another 50% are interested
in aviation, or aviation history -- but pilots are a small, dying
breed, way too small a group to ever support a hotel. Even one as
small as ours... :-(

Even in its hay-day aviation was a drop in the bucket compared to the
automobile.


But Mary and I work on converting each and every one of those "pilot
wannabees" who step into our lobby. I'll set them in the Kiwi, get 'em
shooting an approach into Madeline Island at sunset, and watch the
gears start turning...

That certainly is a good feeling. Our EAA Chapter 1093 has an Aviation
Camp for teens, twice each summer. We have an aviation scholarship
which takes one all the way to their private license, and we have a
"Kids to Oshkosh" day where we fly three over for the day with all
expenses paid. That includes a years membership, flight line passes,
food, and $20 for spending. I think we've been doing that now for
around 14 years which would mean we've sent 41 kids over there. It
would be 42 but we got caught short one year and I had to fly them
over in the Deb which mean the copilot was also chaperon and we could
still only take two.

A while back one of those kids from the aviation camp who flew the Deb
on his Aviation Camp, dual cross country took me for a ride in the 172
he's now flying. I talked to a girl from one of the camps who is
getting ready for college. She has been accepted into Embry Riddle on
a scholarship. She went to the camp one year and has helped with the
camp for the past couple of years. Her involvement also made her one
of the "Kids to Oshkosh".

It is a wonderful feeling to see the magic when the interest takes
hold. Even more so when it actually becomes something.

;-)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com