Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Mxsmanic wrote:
bdl writes:


The realism is very striking. That doesn't make it REAL, however.


As long as the realism is striking, it doesn't have to be real. The
whole purpose of simulation is realism without reality, after all.

In the context of aviation the purpose of simulation is to faithfully
duplicate the aircraft flight deck, panels and systems, motion, and
outside visual references so that pilot qualification in the simulator
translates into pilot qualification in the aircraft.

When flying IFR with jet aircraft, the pilot has little discretion
unless specifically given by ATC.

A usual transmission is, United xxx, descend to 15000, and that's what
you do. On rare occasion, it may be a little looser, United xxx
descent at pilot's discretion, cross intersection xyz at 15000.

If you want a better feel for what actually goes on than you will ever
get via newsgroup, take a couple of United flights and listen to the
ATC channel - it can be much more entertaining than the movie at times.

Paul kgyy wrote:

If you want a better feel for what actually goes on than you will ever
get via newsgroup, take a couple of United flights and listen to the
ATC channel - it can be much more entertaining than the movie at times.

A cheaper way is check this out:
http://www.liveatc.net/

B A R R Y wrote:

Paul kgyy wrote:


If you want a better feel for what actually goes on than you will ever
get via newsgroup, take a couple of United flights and listen to the
ATC channel - it can be much more entertaining than the movie at times.


A cheaper way is check this out:
http://www.liveatc.net/


I'd add the caveat that the value of listening to tower or TRACON,
although, great, does not give the flavor of listening to center sectors
adjacent to busy terminal airspace. For instance, all the descent stuff
that might include PD clearances will occur on Los Angeles Center
frequenices, high and low sectors, not on SoCal frequencies.

Sam Spade wrote:

I'd add the caveat that the value of listening to tower or TRACON,
although, great, does not give the flavor of listening to center sectors
adjacent to busy terminal airspace. For instance, all the descent stuff
that might include PD clearances will occur on Los Angeles Center
frequenices, high and low sectors, not on SoCal frequencies.

Not sure if you are assuming that LiveATC.net only carries tower or TRACON
frequencies or not, but in case you a LiveATC.net also carries many
centner frequencies.

As an example, LiveATC.net has many Boston and NY center frequencies.

Another point is that LiveATC is made up of volunteers providing scanned
frequencies. There are not a lot of western US frequencies on the site due
simply to the lack of volunteers offering them. If you know anyone...


--
Peter
A LiveATC volunteer feeding KSYR tower and approach.

Peter R. wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:


I'd add the caveat that the value of listening to tower or TRACON,
although, great, does not give the flavor of listening to center sectors
adjacent to busy terminal airspace. For instance, all the descent stuff
that might include PD clearances will occur on Los Angeles Center
frequenices, high and low sectors, not on SoCal frequencies.


Not sure if you are assuming that LiveATC.net only carries tower or TRACON
frequencies or not, but in case you a LiveATC.net also carries many
centner frequencies.

As an example, LiveATC.net has many Boston and NY center frequencies.

Another point is that LiveATC is made up of volunteers providing scanned
frequencies. There are not a lot of western US frequencies on the site due
simply to the lack of volunteers offering them. If you know anyone...


I missed the center frequencies. To get a good flavor of the east high
and low LA frequenices you would need a volunteer in Barstow and one
somewhere in the Ontario area. ;-)

Paul kgyy wrote:
When flying IFR with jet aircraft, the pilot has little discretion
unless specifically given by ATC.

Jets are given pilot discretion clearance whenever possible. It is not
a rare event.

A usual transmission is, United xxx, descend to 15000, and that's what
you do. On rare occasion, it may be a little looser, United xxx
descent at pilot's discretion, cross intersection xyz at 15000.

You have that a bit wrong. If a crossing restriction is included a
pilot's discretion descent is implied.

AIM Reference:

If the altitude information of an ATC DESCENT clearance includes a
provision to “CROSS (fix) AT” or “AT OR ABOVE/BELOW (altitude),” the
manner in which the descent is executed to comply with the crossing
altitude is at the pilot’s discretion. This authorization to descend at
pilot’s discretion is only applicable to that portion of the flight to
which the crossing altitude restriction applies, and the pilot is
expected to comply with the crossing altitude as a provision of the
clearance. Any other clearance in which pilot execution is optional will
so state “AT PILOT’S DISCRETION.”



If you want a better feel for what actually goes on than you will ever
get via newsgroup, take a couple of United flights and listen to the
ATC channel - it can be much more entertaining than the movie at times.

If someone has to ride United Airlines to learn about ATC transmissions,
the pain isn't worth the gain.

Paul kgyy wrote:
If you want a better feel for what actually goes on than you will ever
get via newsgroup, take a couple of United flights and listen to the
ATC channel - it can be much more entertaining than the movie at times.

i love that "channel". It's really fun being able to say to the person
you're flying with "i can predict the future. Check it out, we're gonna
turn left in about 3 seconds"

just like at work i always listen to the DFW stream...
http://www.caesimuflite.com/atcindex1.html

mad8 wrote:
Paul kgyy wrote:
If you want a better feel for what actually goes on than you will ever
get via newsgroup, take a couple of United flights and listen to the
ATC channel - it can be much more entertaining than the movie at times.

i love that "channel". It's really fun being able to say to the person
you're flying with "i can predict the future. Check it out, we're gonna
turn left in about 3 seconds"

Coming into LAX a while back, I was listening on that channel. We
were cruising along nicely when I hear ATC urgently call out something
like "United 123, traffic twelve o'clock, descend immediately to eight
thousand, please expedite!" I turned to my companion and said "hold
on". A second later, we all went weightless as the plane took an
unusually sharp dive.

After we leveled off again, the captain came on the speaker and said,
"Well folks, as you can tell, we've just been given permission to
descend towards the airport."

Kev

Paul kgyy writes:

If you want a better feel for what actually goes on than you will ever
get via newsgroup, take a couple of United flights and listen to the
ATC channel - it can be much more entertaining than the movie at times.

I didn't know it was possible to do that. I haven't flown in a long
time. I'm surprised nobody has forbidden it as "useful to
terrorists."

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.