Safety pilot "flight time"

Dave Butler wrote:
In the future I will respond to questions of this kind by just saying
"read 61.51". Actually that's still a pretty good answer. There's a lot
of misinformation in this thread that can be cleared up in a few seconds
spent reading 61.51.

Or in a couple of minutes finding the *LAST* 6,437 threads with this
discussion.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

On 01/22/07 05:22, Jim Macklin wrote:
Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they are
not actually sole manipulator of the controls.

What? Can you please show the regulation that stipulates this?
I've never seen it.


Be honest, you are only required while the hood is on.

That depends on the agreement made by the pilots ahead of time. If
they both agree that the safety pilot shall be PIC, then he can log
it that way - for the entire flight. Of course, to do this, the safety
pilot must be qualified to be PIC (if he doesn't have a complex endorsement,
he can't be PIC in a complex airplane for example).

However, if the pilot flying is PIC, the safety pilot is required only
while the pilot flying has a view limiting device on, and should log
SIC only for that time.





"kevmor" wrote in message
ups.com...
| When logging safety pilot time, what do you put under the
"duration of
| flight" column? For example, say I'm flying with a friend
who is
| wearing a hood. We decided I'll be responsible for the
flight before
| hand. I can log PIC for the time the other person had the
hood on, and
| under the "total flight time" column, put the same as the
PIC/when he
| was wearing the hood?
|
| Someone told me once if the person wore the hood most of
the flight,
| you could log the "flight time" for the entire flight,
because you were
| a required crew member. But once he takes it off though,
you aren't
| required...so I'm thinking it's the same as the PIC time.
|





--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

I think part of what you said was in error:


Of course, to do this, the safety
pilot must be qualified to be PIC (if he doesn't have a complex
endorsement,
he can't be PIC in a complex airplane for example).

I think the regs say that the SP must be rated in Category and Class. I
believe that if I am rated in a SEL airplane, I can fly SP in a complex SEL
airplane.
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
On 01/22/07 05:22, Jim Macklin wrote:
Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they are
not actually sole manipulator of the controls.

What? Can you please show the regulation that stipulates this?
I've never seen it.


Be honest, you are only required while the hood is on.

That depends on the agreement made by the pilots ahead of time. If
they both agree that the safety pilot shall be PIC, then he can log
it that way - for the entire flight. Of course, to do this, the safety
pilot must be qualified to be PIC (if he doesn't have a complex
endorsement,
he can't be PIC in a complex airplane for example).

However, if the pilot flying is PIC, the safety pilot is required only
while the pilot flying has a view limiting device on, and should log
SIC only for that time.





"kevmor" wrote in message
ups.com...
| When logging safety pilot time, what do you put under the
"duration of
| flight" column? For example, say I'm flying with a friend
who is
| wearing a hood. We decided I'll be responsible for the
flight before
| hand. I can log PIC for the time the other person had the
hood on, and
| under the "total flight time" column, put the same as the
PIC/when he
| was wearing the hood?
|
| Someone told me once if the person wore the hood most of
the flight,
| you could log the "flight time" for the entire flight,
because you were
| a required crew member. But once he takes it off though,
you aren't
| required...so I'm thinking it's the same as the PIC time.
|





--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On 01/22/07 09:46, pgbnh wrote:
I think part of what you said was in error:


Of course, to do this, the safety
pilot must be qualified to be PIC (if he doesn't have a complex
endorsement,
he can't be PIC in a complex airplane for example).

I think the regs say that the SP must be rated in Category and Class. I
believe that if I am rated in a SEL airplane, I can fly SP in a complex SEL
airplane.

That's true to act as Safety Pilot. I was talking about acting as PIC.
To be PIC you must also have all the required endorsements, etc.

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
On 01/22/07 05:22, Jim Macklin wrote:
Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they are
not actually sole manipulator of the controls.

What? Can you please show the regulation that stipulates this?
I've never seen it.


Be honest, you are only required while the hood is on.

That depends on the agreement made by the pilots ahead of time. If
they both agree that the safety pilot shall be PIC, then he can log
it that way - for the entire flight. Of course, to do this, the safety
pilot must be qualified to be PIC (if he doesn't have a complex
endorsement,
he can't be PIC in a complex airplane for example).

However, if the pilot flying is PIC, the safety pilot is required only
while the pilot flying has a view limiting device on, and should log
SIC only for that time.





"kevmor" wrote in message
ups.com...
| When logging safety pilot time, what do you put under the
"duration of
| flight" column? For example, say I'm flying with a friend
who is
| wearing a hood. We decided I'll be responsible for the
flight before
| hand. I can log PIC for the time the other person had the
hood on, and
| under the "total flight time" column, put the same as the
PIC/when he
| was wearing the hood?
|
| Someone told me once if the person wore the hood most of
the flight,
| you could log the "flight time" for the entire flight,
because you were
| a required crew member. But once he takes it off though,
you aren't
| required...so I'm thinking it's the same as the PIC time.
|





--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA





--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

You can agree all you want, but to log PIC you must be the
sole manipulator of the controls unless you also hold a
valid CFI.


61.51
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this
section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part
or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of
this part.

(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot
performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship
requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may
log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot
is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport,
recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which
that person-

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft
for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in
command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
required under the type certification of the aircraft or the
regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command
time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command
of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot
certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command
time all flight time while acting as an authorized
instructor.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when
the student pilot-

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing
the duties of pilot of command









"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
| On 01/22/07 05:22, Jim Macklin wrote:
| Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they
are
| not actually sole manipulator of the controls.
|
| What? Can you please show the regulation that stipulates
this?
| I've never seen it.
|
|
| Be honest, you are only required while the hood is on.
|
| That depends on the agreement made by the pilots ahead of
time. If
| they both agree that the safety pilot shall be PIC, then
he can log
| it that way - for the entire flight. Of course, to do
this, the safety
| pilot must be qualified to be PIC (if he doesn't have a
complex endorsement,
| he can't be PIC in a complex airplane for example).
|
| However, if the pilot flying is PIC, the safety pilot is
required only
| while the pilot flying has a view limiting device on, and
should log
| SIC only for that time.
|
|
|
|
|
| "kevmor" wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| | When logging safety pilot time, what do you put under
the
| "duration of
| | flight" column? For example, say I'm flying with a
friend
| who is
| | wearing a hood. We decided I'll be responsible for
the
| flight before
| | hand. I can log PIC for the time the other person had
the
| hood on, and
| | under the "total flight time" column, put the same as
the
| PIC/when he
| | was wearing the hood?
| |
| | Someone told me once if the person wore the hood most
of
| the flight,
| | you could log the "flight time" for the entire flight,
| because you were
| | a required crew member. But once he takes it off
though,
| you aren't
| | required...so I'm thinking it's the same as the PIC
time.
| |
|
|
|
|
|
| --
| Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
| Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
| Sacramento, CA

On 01/22/07 11:24, Jim Macklin wrote:
You can agree all you want, but to log PIC you must be the
sole manipulator of the controls unless you also hold a
valid CFI.

Not according to the regs you just copied. See below:

For this purpose we're talking about the non-flying pilot
performing safety pilot duties for the flying pilot. If both
pilots agree that the non-flying pilot will be the PIC...



61.51
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this
section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part
or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of
this part.

(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot
performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship
requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may
log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot
is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport,
recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which
that person-

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft
for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

The non-flying pilot is not sole manipulator of the controls, so
he can't log PIC as a result of this section.


(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

The non-flying pilot is not the sole occupant either...


(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in
command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
required under the type certification of the aircraft or the
regulations under which the flight is conducted.

He is acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot
is required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted
(the pilot flying is using a view limiting device, which now
requires the second pilot).

Note that I'm not suggesting the pilot not flying can log PIC for
the entire flight; only that portion which meets the above regs.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

You can agree who will be PIC all you want. That decision
will be important in court during a trial for insurance
coverage, etc. But for logging the time, unless you are the
sole manipulator, a CFI or an ATP in airline operations, you
can't log PIC unless you are flying. If all you are is a
safety pilot, you can't be PIC for the purpose of logging
the time. You can be pic for the purpose of deciding
whether Joe or Fred is legally required to pay from their
estate for the damages.

FAR 1.1
Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation
and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during
the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating,
if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.





"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
| On 01/22/07 11:24, Jim Macklin wrote:
| You can agree all you want, but to log PIC you must be
the
| sole manipulator of the controls unless you also hold a
| valid CFI.
|
| Not according to the regs you just copied. See below:
|
| For this purpose we're talking about the non-flying pilot
| performing safety pilot duties for the flying pilot. If
both
| pilots agree that the non-flying pilot will be the PIC...
|
|
|
| 61.51
| (c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in
this
| section may be used to:
|
| (1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this
part
| or a privilege authorized under this part; or
|
| (2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of
| this part.
|
| (d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student
pilot
| performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship
| requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot
may
| log as solo flight time only that flight time when the
pilot
| is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
|
| (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport,
| recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
| pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during
which
| that person-
|
| (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft
| for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
|
| The non-flying pilot is not sole manipulator of the
controls, so
| he can't log PIC as a result of this section.
|
|
| (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
|
| The non-flying pilot is not the sole occupant either...
|
|
| (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as
pilot in
| command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
| required under the type certification of the aircraft or
the
| regulations under which the flight is conducted.
|
| He is acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot
| is required by the regulations under which the flight is
conducted
| (the pilot flying is using a view limiting device, which
now
| requires the second pilot).
|
| Note that I'm not suggesting the pilot not flying can log
PIC for
| the entire flight; only that portion which meets the above
regs.
|
| --
| Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
| Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
| Sacramento, CA

Jim Macklin wrote:


(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in
command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
required under the type certification of the aircraft or the
regulations under which the flight is conducted.


Jim, the FAA has repeatedly stated that 14 CFR 91.109(b)
is considered to be one of those caes which more than one pilot
is required under the REGULATIONS UNDER WHICH THE FLIGHT IS
CONDUCTED.

Sure, one to look and one is flying. The one flying can LOG
PIC, the one looking can log SIC unless they are a CFI, in
which case they can log PIC w/o actually touching the
controls.

FAR 1.1
Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation
and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during
the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating,
if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.



has nothing to do with logging the time. It is quite
possible that nobody can log PIC on a flight, but every
flight will have somebody who will meet the FAR 1.1
responsibility for the flight.



Agree who is PIC, the decision maker (1), was assigned to be
PIC by the flight dispatcher (2) and do that in writing if
you don't want your widow to be homeless. But the FAA
LOGGING rules are different from the idea that you can
decide to allow the non-flying pilot to log PIC time.







"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
|
| (iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as
pilot in
| command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
| required under the type certification of the aircraft or
the
| regulations under which the flight is conducted.
|
|
| Jim, the FAA has repeatedly stated that 14 CFR 91.109(b)
| is considered to be one of those caes which more than one
pilot
| is required under the REGULATIONS UNDER WHICH THE FLIGHT
IS
| CONDUCTED.

Jim Macklin wrote:
Second in command time, only a CFI can log PIC when they are
not actually sole manipulator of the controls.


You need to go back and read the rules again. There are
certainly several cases where you can log PIC when not
the sole manipulator of the controls. The safety pilot
who is acting as PIC is one of them.