Visual coordination of turns revisited

Danny Deger writes:

This is an interesting question. My first guess is you would have to have a
massively uncoordinated turn to detect it by looking out the window.

I think you're right. It seems really hard to detect a lack of coordination
just by looking out the window, even with a fixed reference (which MSFS can
provide).

If you have rudders in your sim, try a turn with the rudder almost full left.

In that case, the lack of coordination is obvious, but it doesn't help for
more normal turns.

One thing I'm not clear on is just how much the ball represents uncoordinated
motion in real life. If it's just out of its box but still touching it, how
much of a perceptible error is that in the aircraft? Is that enough to easily
feel, or does the ball react before you notice the sensation? Or, conversely,
do you notice the lack of coordination before the ball even begins to move.

I notice, for example, that the ball moves dramatically on the ground while
turning on taxiways, as one might expect, but I also know that in real life,
these turns would not produce powerful sensations. So the ball must be
sensitive indeed.

I've also read that the ball sometimes is not reliable at certain points in a
turn or during other maneuvers, but I'm not clear on exactly at what points
those are (when rolling out of a turn?).

The only thing I can think of showing up
in the visuals would be a turn rate either more or less than it should be
based on the bank angle.

That would work very well if I could calculate the proper turn rate in my head
quickly enough. I haven't been able to do that thus far.

My main consolation is that coordinated turns come so naturally that they
would not require much training in a real aircraft, only a few minutes of
practice.

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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Danny Deger writes:

This is an interesting question. My first guess is you would have to
have a
massively uncoordinated turn to detect it by looking out the window.

I think you're right. It seems really hard to detect a lack of
coordination
just by looking out the window, even with a fixed reference (which MSFS
can
provide).

If you have rudders in your sim, try a turn with the rudder almost full
left.

In that case, the lack of coordination is obvious, but it doesn't help for
more normal turns.

One thing I'm not clear on is just how much the ball represents
uncoordinated
motion in real life. If it's just out of its box but still touching it,
how
much of a perceptible error is that in the aircraft? Is that enough to
easily
feel, or does the ball react before you notice the sensation? Or,
conversely,
do you notice the lack of coordination before the ball even begins to
move.

If it is caused by P-factor it is virtually unnoticeable without looking at
the ball.


I notice, for example, that the ball moves dramatically on the ground
while
turning on taxiways, as one might expect, but I also know that in real
life,
these turns would not produce powerful sensations. So the ball must be
sensitive indeed.


NOTICE!!!!
Mxsmanic is NOT a pilot, has NEVER flown an aircraft and is NOT qualified to
issue competent information regarding any aspect of the operation of any
aircraft.



My main consolation is that coordinated turns come so naturally that they
would not require much training in a real aircraft, only a few minutes of
practice.

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I have been flying real airplanes since 1975 and I still occasionaly have
to "step on the ball." And I'll bet every other pilot in this forum does
also.
Quit making statements like the one above until you go out and DO
IT!!

Casey Wilson writes:

Quit making statements like the one above until you go out and DO
IT!!

I guarantee that I would have it down very quickly indeed. I know the types
of coordination tasks that I do well, and this is one of them. And I expect
that there are many people like me. It's an easy and natural task (natural in
the sense that what perception indicates is accurate with default
interpretations).

--
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"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Casey Wilson writes:

Quit making statements like the one above until you go out and DO
IT!!

I guarantee that I would have it down very quickly indeed. I know the
types
of coordination tasks that I do well, and this is one of them. And I
expect
that there are many people like me. It's an easy and natural task
(natural in
the sense that what perception indicates is accurate with default
interpretations).

--
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You have no idea how wrong you are. One 45-degree bank, climbing 540, and
your perceptions would be worthless in the real world. And would you please
define default interpretations.

On Feb 9, 7:13 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Casey Wilson writes:
Quit making statements like the one above until you go out and DO
IT!!

I guarantee that I would have it down very quickly indeed. I know the types
of coordination tasks that I do well, and this is one of them.

Been in the flight training industry for fourteen years now, and
the above statement is so familiar it's not funny. And after a few
hours they either realize they're wrong and start listening, or we
have to stop flying with them because they're such a threat, failing
to understand that they don't understand. They got their minds made up
and that's all there is to it. Some of them even come back from the
first flight either sick (had no idea what to expect in terms of
motion, especially in rough air), or had their tails between their
legs when they discovered they actually couldn't fly. Can't push the
PAUSE button and sort things out.
And I expect
that there are many people like me.

Yup. Way too many.

It's an easy and natural task (natural in
the sense that what perception indicates is accurate with default
interpretations).

Easy until you try it.

Dan

I doubt one would do this, but a real Baron pilot could in fact fly
coordinated by outside reference only by taping a piece of yarn to the
middle of his windshield and flying such that it pointed straight up
along the windshield axis.


On Feb 7, 5:47 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
I'm still in a bit of a quandry as to how to learn to make coordinated turns
in a PC simulator that does not include a motion platform.

I've turned on the visual alignment indicator that MSFS provides, which is a
red "V" that sits squarely ahead in the visual field, effectively bolted to
the airframe. I've been trying to turn such that this V always moves along
the horizon at a constant speed for a given bank angle. Logically, a specific
bank angle in a coordinated turn will always produce a heading change at the
same speed. If the speed at which the horizon is moving varies, the turn is
not coordinated.

Also, it seems that in a coordinated, level turn, this V should stay at the
same distance above the horizon throughout the turn.

As I roll into a turn, the speed of movement of the V along the horizon should
increase in precise relationship to the bank angle. The opposite should occur
as I roll out of the turn, with the speed along the horizon slowing as I
return to level flight.

Any problems with this? The only remaining problem is to figure out _how_
fast the V should be moving for a given bank angle. Maybe that can come with
practice.

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