Need help with a rocket motor ID

Henry_H@Q_ wrote:

I meant to say that although Truax didn't have the right answer for
airplanes, that work lead directly on to the whole world of hypergols
in the US, many, many vehicles and engine/motors.

Got it. He did come up with some brilliant design work, which
he must have know were inappropriate for aircraft. Most rocketeers
of the time had their eye on spaceflight and had to search hard to
justify their projects. There was considerable opposition to wasting
resources on "that Buck Rogers stuff."

Those are the same figures in Sutton's "Rocket Propulsion Elements."
I figure that Mano Zeigler gave different numbers in "Rocket Fighter"
due to conditions in Axisland--with the Allies bombing their plants
and supply lines, they may have had to settle for anything that could
flow through the lines and burn.

If I remember the book, and I am pretty sure I do, it was sort of a
"quick and dirty" account based on very limited sources. I think I
first read it myself only a couple of years after the war, so it has
been around a while. A lot of documentation showed up later that the
author didn't have then.

I checked the copyright dates in my book, and the oldest date for
"Rocket Fighter" is 1961. I vaguely recall seeing another book about
the Komet somewhere, but I never had a chance to read it.

That was a typical condition in the Reich. And, given how hard it was
to find self-confessed Nazis after the war, the condition persisted.
Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" is a classic example.

You have to be careful about testimony of participants. You have to be
ten times more careful when they are under duress. And, being a POW
after having lost a war is a LOT of duress.

Speer wrote his book in Spandau, and he managed to keep
it secret from the jailers. He was clearly writing with an eye
on redeeming his reputation, such as it was. How it fooled
anyone is beyond me.

(Although the military historian SLA Marshall claims that the
Germans did, indeed, get the "Nuts!" message. Marshall interrogated
Manteuffel and his staff after the war. At one session Manteuffel
kept blaming his mistakes on his staff. At last one of his subordinates
leaned forward, waggled a finger in Manteuffel's face and shouted
"Nuts! Nuts!")

Another sub plot to that story that I have seen in one account was
that there was some junior officere there who was an English language
expert. He thought up the idea of the surrender demand. And wrote it
and got permission to deliver it. But, when he got the answer, he
didn't know what it meant.

That's the version which played on the British series "World At War."
An American officer said, more or less, "'I told him 'The general said
"nuts!"' The German said 'I do not understand that word in this context.'
I said 'Do you understand "Go to hell"?' The German said 'Yes, I
understand that.'")

--Bill Thompson

On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 03:40:31 GMT, "William R Thompson"
wrote:

Henry_H@Q_wrote:

I see that there was a lot of discussion I didn't read. I am glad to
see that the source was tracked down. But, I am I bit surprised to see
it was from Rocketdyne.

It looks like someone issued specs that said, basically, "make it
reliable and simple, and don't worry too much about the weight."

As I said, it doesn't look like it goes to far "up the stack". I
though about it being an "airplane" but I couldn't imagine which one.

But, it looks better, "all dressed up."

(For airplanes, RATO lost out to the army developed "JATO" solid
propellant "boosters.")

I can see why. RATO could be throttled and restarted, but I think
the only application anyone saw for that was in seaplane take-offs.
JATO looks a lot less maintenance-intense than RATO (see attached
picture).

Hey, looks simple to me! I have done my tour on both the liquid and
solid fronts. Both have advantages, both have problems. I will take
the liquid problems any day. But, I am in the minority it seems.

I think it turns out that rockets are much to expensive for general
use whether they are liguid or solid.

I meant to say that although Truax didn't have the right answer for
airplanes, that work lead drrectly on to the whole world of hypergols
in the US, many, many vehicles and engine/motors.


T-Stoff, was a mixture of 80% hydrogen peroxide plus
oxyquinoline or phosphate as a stabilizer. [most of the other 20
percent would have been water. _hh]

And that

C-Stoff was a mixture of 57% methanol + 30% hydrazine hydrate + 13%
water, with
traces of either cupro-potassium cyanide or copper oxide (probably as
a stabilizer).

I accept those as being correct. Methanol the kind of stuff you would
want as a fuel. The hydrazine hydrate would be added to provide
"smooth combustion" and the water may have resulted from using the
highest concentration of hydrazine hydrate that was available, or
possibly it was just added as coolant.

(Usually wiki is a really good place for this kind of stuff, but I
didn't find the exact numbers there)

Those are the same figures in Sutton's "Rocket Propulsion Elements."
I figure that Mano Zeigler gave different numbers in "Rocket Fighter"
due to conditions in Axisland--with the Allies bombing their plants
and supply lines, they may have had to settle for anything that could
flow through the lines and burn.


If I remember the book, and I am pretty sure I do, it was sort of a
"quick and dirty" account based on very limited sources. I think I
first read it myself only a couple of years after the war, so it has
been around a while. A lot of documentation dhowed up later that the
author didn't have then.


It is hard to find people in the rocket biz that have had long term
exposure to hydrazine that have not also be exposed to N2O4 so when
there are stories about long term effects, you don't know which to
blame. But I will take the alternative to "in a couple of more days,
they die." Better chronic than prompt.

As I recall, Vance Brand passed out from exposure to dumped fuels
during the Apollo-18/ASTP descent, and the crew was taken to the
hospital afterward. They didn't seem to suffer any long-term effects.


I remember somethign about tat, but I don't even know as much as you
said.

(In ordnance circles, I got into this thing of distinguishing between
"high order" explosions or "detonations" and "low order" explosions or
deflagrations. Then there are "no yield" ones, like tank ruptures. I
use to rankle when people talked about auto gas tanks exploding, or
example. Then I read some dictionaries. The "sufficient" definition of
an "explosion" seems to be some event in which a noise was heard.)

I know people who think that a proper footnote is anything with
an asterisk. (Sorry, but citing a newspaper gossip column isn't
quite the same as citing, say, a trial transcript.)

One thing that was more hazardous on the Me163 than the exotic (for
then) propellants was the operational scenario. Take off, climb to
combat altitude, run out of propellant, glide to a landing spot, and
be stuck on the ground on the landing skids.

The allied pilots quickly figured that out, and that there was little
to be done about powered flight, so they just waited and followed them
down and nailed them on the ground. It is a wonder that anyone had any
stories about explosions, they should have all been killed.

My conclusion from trying to find out what happened was that the
Luffwaffe was totally negligent in keeping any useful accident reports
in the WW II era, at least that I found.

That was a typical condition in the Reich. And, given how hard it was
to find self-confessed Nazis after the war, the condition persisted.
Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" is a classic example.


You have to be careful about testimony of participants. You have to be
ten times more careful when they are under duress. And, being a POW
after having lost a war is a LOT of duress.

But there are all to many examples of people thinking up stories and
then feeding them to people just like that to get them to play them
back.

The worst one I think of off hand was some guy who was on the
interrogation team of the Japanese Navy participants in PH. His own
personal theory was that the Japanese should have left the ships alone
and gone for the oil tanks. So he asked that question over and over
again until all the Japanese got the answer right.

There was a similar deal about the pre war demands, whch are totally
unclear as to whether they mean "China" or IndoChina" or both. Some
different guy (I guess he was different) got all sorts of people to
say it would have been entirely different, "If they had only known"
what we said.

The Japanese were unusually eager to cooperate, be everyone is eager
in those circumstances.

Designers are often told that "You have to listen to what the user
says, they were the ones that know what is going on.

I agree that you should listen. But you should evaluate what you hear.
Anyone's "eye witness account" is likely to be highly biased and
frequently just imaginary.

That's what I was taught when getting my degrees in hysteria, er, history.
My favorite example has to do with the "Nuts!" event at Bastogne.
There are several accounts of exactly what was said; the accounts
come from people who were there--and they don't match up.


I have read many of those accounts. And there are very different
versions of what General McAuliffe initally said. Some say it was
profane, othere say that people heard what they wanted to hear, and
that McAuliffe never used profanity and that is exactly what he would
have said.

"It is very true, and if it is not, it should be."

Some stories are so well known and are so much a paart of what
happened they are as important as "facts."


But, there is another aspect of the "Nuts" story. In about 1950 the
National Archives put togetner an exibition on a train and it toured
the country. It had really "heavy weight" stuff on it. Including the
Constitution and the Declaration of Independnce, the originals (I
think!). Hard to imagine doing that now.


I toured the train. I was there. I SAW the piece of paper that
McAuliffe wrote it on.

Just like the Germans to file that away.

SO, although there can be debate about what he SAID, I KNOW what he
wrote, because I saw it.

However, I can't find any discussionof anyone else knowing that.


(Although the military historian SLA Marshall claims that the
Germans did, indeed, get the "Nuts!" message. Marshall interrogated
Manteuffel and his staff after the war. At one session Manteuffel
kept blaming his mistakes on his staff. At last one of his subordinates
leaned forward, waggled a finger in Manteuffel's face and shouted
"Nuts! Nuts!")


Another sub plot to that story that I have seen in one account was
that there was some junior officere there who was an English language
expert. He thought up the idea of the surrender demand. And wrote it
and got permission to deliver it. But, when he got the answer, he
didn't know what it meant.

The officer who escorted him back to the German lines explained it in
terms the German understood. He may have used any of the expressins
that have been suggested.

It was also said that when they parted, the German made a last plea
"you must accept or many people will die." the escort was said to have
said "this is war and that is what it is all about. Many will die and
they won't all be on our side."

Now, that is a REAL fairy tale.


And, what were the seals and all the other bits made of. I was once
reading a report on the X-1 which was very like an American Lox Me163
and at about the same time. There was something about an explosion and
a fire. The report said they weren't sure what happened, but they
though it might have involved a seal. (I think maybe it was in a check
valve and lit off when the valve closure slammed on it.) They then
started to discuss what sort of special, proprietary LEATHER (!) the
seal was made of. I quit reading.

The Ulmer leather gaskets, which if memory serves were treated with
tricresyl phosphate. The accounts I've read said that the treated gaskets
didn't react with the liquid oxygen--but in the presence of lox, the gaskets
became *very* sensitive to mechanical shock, making them "slightly"
explosive. I think the losses of the X-1A, X-1D and second X-2 were
blamed on that.


I have though about that a lot. The correct process for making leather
LOX compatable doesn't leave ANY leather in the leather. Or as I told
a guy once "Send me that (polyethelyne bottle) to be LOX cleaned and
I will send you back an empty bag with a tag on it."

In those days, I gather, they hadn't come up with impact testing. And
such events were how they got the idea.

In one sense, most things are "compatible" with LOX, as there is no
"attack' in the absece of impact.

RP won't react with LOX until you hit or subect it to an ignition
source. That is what makes it so dangerous, you can get an
accumulationt that will blow the back end of the vehicle into the next
county. "Static" compatibility is meaningless for LOX.

"Low order" reactions to impact are also pretty meaningless since even
a small pop can do a lot of damage, including possibly stuff like
igniting some surrounding stuff, like aluminum valve housings, say.

It is somewhat hard to see how anything could have been done wiht any
useful oxidizer, LOX, peroxide, N2O4 or whatever, untel Teflon came
along. But they did do lots of stuff. Even Teflon has a lot of
problems. (but is compatable.)


Henry H.

--Bill Thompson

On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 03:40:31 GMT, "William R Thompson"
wrote:

[snip]

That's what I was taught when getting my degrees in hysteria, er, history.
My favorite example has to do with the "Nuts!" event at Bastogne.
There are several accounts of exactly what was said; the accounts
come from people who were there--and they don't match up.

After my first reply to this message I did some Googleing. I still
can't find any mention of the "Nuts" document.

However, I did find this on wiki:



*****************

The 1947-1949 Freedom Train was proposed by Attorney General Tom C.
Clark as a way to reawaken Americans to their taken-for-granted
principles of liberty in the post-war years. The idea soon got the
approval of President Harry S. Truman and everything else fell into
place. Top Marines were selected to attend to the train and its famous
documents. The Marine contingent was led by Col. Robert F. Scott.

The train carried the original versions of the United States
Constitution, Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights on
its tour of more than 300 cities in all 48 states. As Alaska and
Hawaii didn't gain statehood until 1959, this train toured all of the
US States that existed at the time.


*****************

I saw it when it stopped in Atlanta, Ga. on Jan. 2, 1948/

I am very sceptical of authority in reference sources, I certainly
don't think the EB is very authorative. "Trust everyone, but cut the
cards, anyway."

But, as a friend use to say "Even a blind pig finds some nuts."

There are a LOT of nuts on wiki.

Various kinds.

No matter what you know, you don't know that you know everything until
you check wiki.


Henry H.

Henry_H@Q wrote:

"William R Thompson" wrote:

[snip]

That's what I was taught when getting my degrees in hysteria, er, history.
My favorite example has to do with the "Nuts!" event at Bastogne.
There are several accounts of exactly what was said; the accounts
come from people who were there--and they don't match up.

After my first reply to this message I did some Googleing. I still
can't find any mention of the "Nuts" document.

However, I did find this on wiki:

The 1947-1949 Freedom Train was proposed by Attorney General Tom C.
Clark as a way to reawaken Americans to their taken-for-granted
principles of liberty in the post-war years. The idea soon got the
approval of President Harry S. Truman and everything else fell into
place. Top Marines were selected to attend to the train and its famous
documents. The Marine contingent was led by Col. Robert F. Scott.

Well-armed and alert, I trust. The Liberty Bell had been sent on an
earlier tour (in the Twenties, I think--details escape me) during which
tour bits and pieces were hacked off the rim as souvenirs.

I am very sceptical of authority in reference sources, I certainly
don't think the EB is very authorative. "Trust everyone, but cut the
cards, anyway."

The history department's attitude was "multiple references, please,
and even then we may laugh."

But, as a friend use to say "Even a blind pig finds some nuts."

There are a LOT of nuts on wiki.

Both metric and SAE.

--Bill Thompson

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 03:56:02 GMT, "William R Thompson"
wrote:

Henry_H@Q wrote:

"William R Thompson" wrote:

[snip]

That's what I was taught when getting my degrees in hysteria, er, history.
My favorite example has to do with the "Nuts!" event at Bastogne.
There are several accounts of exactly what was said; the accounts
come from people who were there--and they don't match up.

Some one once told me that there was a lot of interesting discussion
here on UseNet but that no one had ever resolved ANYTHING here.

Well, You are not going to believe this, I hardly believe it myself,
but I have resolved this one, to my satisfaction at least. See below….

And you figured out what the rocket motor was. WOW!

After my first reply to this message I did some Googleing. I still
can't find any mention of the "Nuts" document.

However, I did find this on wiki:

The 1947-1949 Freedom Train was proposed by Attorney General Tom C.
Clark as a way to reawaken Americans to their taken-for-granted
principles of liberty in the post-war years. The idea soon got the
approval of President Harry S. Truman and everything else fell into
place. Top Marines were selected to attend to the train and its famous
documents. The Marine contingent was led by Col. Robert F. Scott.

Well-armed and alert, I trust. The Liberty Bell had been sent on an
earlier tour (in the Twenties, I think--details escape me) during which
tour bits and pieces were hacked off the rim as souvenirs.


Just a few days back, I wrote a message on "military" that was exactly
appropriate to that question.


The first was while I was in the Basic course [Of the Ordnance School,
APG, Maryland]. I noticed this Captain
who seemed to be around a lot. He was a scrawny little guy, but with a
VERY military "bearing."

One day, he stood up at the lectern and said "Gentlemen, I am Captain
Blank and I am your artillery instructor. By way of introduction, I
would like to tall you that I have had three notable experiences in my
army career.

1) I was the fire control officer for the first [and only, as it
turns out] 280 mm gun to fire an atomic projectile at the Nevada Test
Range.

2) I was the fire control officer for the first [and only, as it turns
out] 280 mm gun to fire an [inert] projectile into downtown Lawton
Oklahoma.

3) I am the only officer of that battery who is still in the U. S.
Army"

I IMMEDIATELY too that guy off my list of people that could be fooled
around with. (certainly ones that I was going to fool around with!)

************************************************


In 1948 the Marines, and the other services were full of guys in that
same category. "Bad Asses" that were very casual about killing people
and many of whom were just waiting out their time to get out, Some
were not to patient and some had bad attitudes. Some both.

There was one story at just that time about one Marine that was
assigned to gate guard duty at the Brooklyn Navy Yard while he was
waiting out his time. "Don't let anyone through this gate unless he
shows a badge" I guess they told him.

Some civilian, not paying attention drove through and didn't stop. The
Marine shot him neatly through the back of the head. There was no
recurrence of that!

There was no one on that train that I, a ten year old at the time, was
going to mess with.




I am very skeptical of authority in reference sources, I certainly
don't think the EB is very authoritative. "Trust everyone, but cut the
cards, anyway."

The history department's attitude was "multiple references, please,
and even then we may laugh."

I have often thought that when I find something that I think is really
important, I don't want another thousand sources that tell me the same
thing. They may well be copying each other. Or they may all be copying
the same source. So they are not truly independent.

First thing I want to see is someone who disagrees. Then you have to
pick between the arguments and see which one you believe.

"How many non black non crow things do you have to find to prove that
'all crows are black'?"

Quite a few. But you only have to find one white crow to prove it
false.


But, as a friend use to say "Even a blind pig finds some nuts."

There are a LOT of nuts on wiki.

Both metric and SAE.

You betc'um Red Ryder!

There are also some premium grade Macadamias and Blue Diamond Smoked
Almonds there too.

I went back and had the following exchange there.


************************************************** *************

OK, I have seen all this discussion about what was said, many times.
What I want to know is what was written down and the evidence for it.
In 1947 and 1948 there was the "Freedom Train" tour. My recollection
is that among other things, the train contained the document. But, I
can find no mention of that, or the document. Everything else is in
wiki, why not this?

Henry H.

Henry H. 17:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC) 11/13/05

Reply to Henry H.:

The document that was in the Freedon Train was a copy of General
McAuliffe's message to the troops on Christmas 1944. It included the
text of both the German surrender demand and the succinct reply of
General Mcauliffe. It was composed by Lt. Col. Kinnard on Christmas
Eve while General McAuliffe was attending a Catholic Mass being held
in Savy, where one on his artillery units was based. When he returned
to the HQ, General McAuliffe agreed with what Col. Kinnard had written
and it was run off and distributed to the troops. It is mentioned in
the series "Band of Brothers", episode 6. A copy of that message is
occasionally sold on eBay. I think a Google search on 'McAuliffe
"Christmas message"'will find copies of it on the Internet.


[I did look and I did find it, just like that!]

Ken McAuliffe

General McAuliffe's nephew --Bastogne 15:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)



I think that is as good an answer on that as one is ever going to get.
When you don't like what EB you don't get that kind of help, at least
I never have.

What I was looking at was not "the original" (I always wondered how
the heck they managed to get it back from the Germans!)

It was a replica, but it was a "contemporaneous replica" made by the
same guy that made the original.

I am going to have to go back and thank Ken McAuliffe for the
wonderful reply. I almost feel the same as if General McAuliffe had
contacted me directly. And, he was as close to a military hero as I
have in my pantheon.

I stand in awe.

One of the many stories I read about the BOB was that a bunch of
American troops were milling around. Waiting for the German advance. A
single paratrooper showed up and started making preperations. He
pointed at the road. "You people got on THAT side of the road. I am
the 82 (not 101 in this case) and I am stopping them, RIGHT HERE."

That was exactly the attitude that the 101st. and McAuliffe had.

(There was no reserve in the ETO except for the 82 and 101 who where
recuperating from Market Garden. At first the idea was to send the 82
to Bastogne but once they got that straight, there was no real
direction to getting the 101 there. They just went. Stole trucks or
whatever, and went. They had no idea where it was they were going to,
just that they were going. At one time I figured that was a uniquely
American thing. But I later read descriptions of the German response
to Anzio that were very similar. )

Henry H.

Henry_H@Q wrote:

And you figured out what the rocket motor was. WOW!

Dave Kearton gets credit for that one.

I have often thought that when I find something that I think is really
important, I don't want another thousand sources that tell me the same
thing. They may well be copying each other. Or they may all be copying
the same source. So they are not truly independent.

True. Do a Google search for "medical Middle Ages" and you'll find
dozens of sites which refer to Dr. Hammond's comment on medicine
during the American Civil War.

First thing I want to see is someone who disagrees. Then you have to
pick between the arguments and see which one you believe.

That's a big part of historical studies. You can improve the odds on
making the right choice if you already know the topic. The bozoes
have a habit of leaving out any facts they don't like.

The document that was in the Freedon Train was a copy of General
McAuliffe's message to the troops on Christmas 1944. It included the
text of both the German surrender demand and the succinct reply of
General Mcauliffe. It was composed by Lt. Col. Kinnard on Christmas
Eve while General McAuliffe was attending a Catholic Mass being held
in Savy, where one on his artillery units was based. When he returned
to the HQ, General McAuliffe agreed with what Col. Kinnard had written
and it was run off and distributed to the troops. It is mentioned in
the series "Band of Brothers", episode 6. A copy of that message is
occasionally sold on eBay. I think a Google search on 'McAuliffe
"Christmas message"'will find copies of it on the Internet.

[I did look and I did find it, just like that!]

Pre-internet, looking for a transcript of the message would have
involved a visit to a good research library, checking the card catalog
for references to McAuliffe and the Ardennes Offensive . . . find the
books, check their indexes and lists of illustrations . . . strike out
there, so go to the periodicals index and hope to find something in
a journal or mass-circulation magazine . . . find out that another library
had what you needed . . . order it on an inter-library loan . . .

Google takes all the fun out of it.

I think that is as good an answer on that as one is ever going to get.
When you don't like what EB you don't get that kind of help, at least
I never have.

All sources have that limitation. I grew up in Orange County, California;
I went to a parochial high school in Anaheim--and until a few years I
had no idea that the area had been a hotbed of KKK activity in the
mid-Twenties. Given that some prominent members of Orange County
society had belonged to the Klan, it's easy to imagine why nobody
said much about Klanaheim.

What I was looking at was not "the original" (I always wondered how
the heck they managed to get it back from the Germans!)

Well, the Germans did make the mistake of losing that war . . .

--Bill Thompson

Henry_H@Q wrote:

And you figured out what the rocket motor was. WOW!

Dave Kearton gets credit for that one.

I have often thought that when I find something that I think is really
important, I don't want another thousand sources that tell me the same
thing. They may well be copying each other. Or they may all be copying
the same source. So they are not truly independent.

True. Do a Google search for "medical Middle Ages" and you'll find
dozens of sites which refer to Dr. Hammond's comment on medicine
during the American Civil War.

First thing I want to see is someone who disagrees. Then you have to
pick between the arguments and see which one you believe.

That's a big part of historical studies. You can improve the odds on
making the right choice if you already know the topic. The bozoes
have a habit of leaving out any facts they don't like.

The document that was in the Freedon Train was a copy of General
McAuliffe's message to the troops on Christmas 1944. It included the
text of both the German surrender demand and the succinct reply of
General Mcauliffe. It was composed by Lt. Col. Kinnard on Christmas
Eve while General McAuliffe was attending a Catholic Mass being held
in Savy, where one on his artillery units was based. When he returned
to the HQ, General McAuliffe agreed with what Col. Kinnard had written
and it was run off and distributed to the troops. It is mentioned in
the series "Band of Brothers", episode 6. A copy of that message is
occasionally sold on eBay. I think a Google search on 'McAuliffe
"Christmas message"'will find copies of it on the Internet.

[I did look and I did find it, just like that!]

Pre-internet, looking for a transcript of the message would have
involved a visit to a good research library, checking the card catalog
for references to McAuliffe and the Ardennes Offensive . . . find the
books, check their indexes and lists of illustrations . . . strike out
there, so go to the periodicals index and hope to find something in
a journal or mass-circulation magazine . . . find out that another library
had what you needed . . . order it on an inter-library loan . . .

Google takes all the fun out of it.

I think that is as good an answer on that as one is ever going to get.
When you don't like what EB you don't get that kind of help, at least
I never have.

All sources have that limitation. I grew up in Orange County, California;
I went to a parochial high school in Anaheim--and until a few years I
had no idea that the area had been a hotbed of KKK activity in the
mid-Twenties. Given that some prominent members of Orange County
society had belonged to the Klan, it's easy to imagine why nobody
said much about Klanaheim.

What I was looking at was not "the original" (I always wondered how
the heck they managed to get it back from the Germans!)

Well, the Germans did make the mistake of losing that war . . .

--Bill Thompson

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 03:56:02 GMT, "William R Thompson"
wrote:

Henry_H@Q wrote:

"William R Thompson" wrote:

[snip]

That's what I was taught when getting my degrees in hysteria, er, history.
My favorite example has to do with the "Nuts!" event at Bastogne.
There are several accounts of exactly what was said; the accounts
come from people who were there--and they don't match up.

Some one once told me that there was a lot of interesting discussion
here on UseNet but that no one had ever resolved ANYTHING here.

Well, You are not going to believe this, I hardly believe it myself,
but I have resolved this one, to my satisfaction at least. See below….

And you figured out what the rocket motor was. WOW!

After my first reply to this message I did some Googleing. I still
can't find any mention of the "Nuts" document.

However, I did find this on wiki:

The 1947-1949 Freedom Train was proposed by Attorney General Tom C.
Clark as a way to reawaken Americans to their taken-for-granted
principles of liberty in the post-war years. The idea soon got the
approval of President Harry S. Truman and everything else fell into
place. Top Marines were selected to attend to the train and its famous
documents. The Marine contingent was led by Col. Robert F. Scott.

Well-armed and alert, I trust. The Liberty Bell had been sent on an
earlier tour (in the Twenties, I think--details escape me) during which
tour bits and pieces were hacked off the rim as souvenirs.


Just a few days back, I wrote a message on "military" that was exactly
appropriate to that question.


The first was while I was in the Basic course [Of the Ordnance School,
APG, Maryland]. I noticed this Captain
who seemed to be around a lot. He was a scrawny little guy, but with a
VERY military "bearing."

One day, he stood up at the lectern and said "Gentlemen, I am Captain
Blank and I am your artillery instructor. By way of introduction, I
would like to tall you that I have had three notable experiences in my
army career.

1) I was the fire control officer for the first [and only, as it
turns out] 280 mm gun to fire an atomic projectile at the Nevada Test
Range.

2) I was the fire control officer for the first [and only, as it turns
out] 280 mm gun to fire an [inert] projectile into downtown Lawton
Oklahoma.

3) I am the only officer of that battery who is still in the U. S.
Army"

I IMMEDIATELY too that guy off my list of people that could be fooled
around with. (certainly ones that I was going to fool around with!)

************************************************


In 1948 the Marines, and the other services were full of guys in that
same category. "Bad Asses" that were very casual about killing people
and many of whom were just waiting out their time to get out, Some
were not to patient and some had bad attitudes. Some both.

There was one story at just that time about one Marine that was
assigned to gate guard duty at the Brooklyn Navy Yard while he was
waiting out his time. "Don't let anyone through this gate unless he
shows a badge" I guess they told him.

Some civilian, not paying attention drove through and didn't stop. The
Marine shot him neatly through the back of the head. There was no
recurrence of that!

There was no one on that train that I, a ten year old at the time, was
going to mess with.




I am very skeptical of authority in reference sources, I certainly
don't think the EB is very authoritative. "Trust everyone, but cut the
cards, anyway."

The history department's attitude was "multiple references, please,
and even then we may laugh."

I have often thought that when I find something that I think is really
important, I don't want another thousand sources that tell me the same
thing. They may well be copying each other. Or they may all be copying
the same source. So they are not truly independent.

First thing I want to see is someone who disagrees. Then you have to
pick between the arguments and see which one you believe.

"How many non black non crow things do you have to find to prove that
'all crows are black'?"

Quite a few. But you only have to find one white crow to prove it
false.


But, as a friend use to say "Even a blind pig finds some nuts."

There are a LOT of nuts on wiki.

Both metric and SAE.

You betc'um Red Ryder!

There are also some premium grade Macadamias and Blue Diamond Smoked
Almonds there too.

I went back and had the following exchange there.


************************************************** *************

OK, I have seen all this discussion about what was said, many times.
What I want to know is what was written down and the evidence for it.
In 1947 and 1948 there was the "Freedom Train" tour. My recollection
is that among other things, the train contained the document. But, I
can find no mention of that, or the document. Everything else is in
wiki, why not this?

Henry H.

Henry H. 17:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC) 11/13/05

Reply to Henry H.:

The document that was in the Freedon Train was a copy of General
McAuliffe's message to the troops on Christmas 1944. It included the
text of both the German surrender demand and the succinct reply of
General Mcauliffe. It was composed by Lt. Col. Kinnard on Christmas
Eve while General McAuliffe was attending a Catholic Mass being held
in Savy, where one on his artillery units was based. When he returned
to the HQ, General McAuliffe agreed with what Col. Kinnard had written
and it was run off and distributed to the troops. It is mentioned in
the series "Band of Brothers", episode 6. A copy of that message is
occasionally sold on eBay. I think a Google search on 'McAuliffe
"Christmas message"'will find copies of it on the Internet.


[I did look and I did find it, just like that!]

Ken McAuliffe

General McAuliffe's nephew --Bastogne 15:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)



I think that is as good an answer on that as one is ever going to get.
When you don't like what EB you don't get that kind of help, at least
I never have.

What I was looking at was not "the original" (I always wondered how
the heck they managed to get it back from the Germans!)

It was a replica, but it was a "contemporaneous replica" made by the
same guy that made the original.

I am going to have to go back and thank Ken McAuliffe for the
wonderful reply. I almost feel the same as if General McAuliffe had
contacted me directly. And, he was as close to a military hero as I
have in my pantheon.

I stand in awe.

One of the many stories I read about the BOB was that a bunch of
American troops were milling around. Waiting for the German advance. A
single paratrooper showed up and started making preperations. He
pointed at the road. "You people got on THAT side of the road. I am
the 82 (not 101 in this case) and I am stopping them, RIGHT HERE."

That was exactly the attitude that the 101st. and McAuliffe had.

(There was no reserve in the ETO except for the 82 and 101 who where
recuperating from Market Garden. At first the idea was to send the 82
to Bastogne but once they got that straight, there was no real
direction to getting the 101 there. They just went. Stole trucks or
whatever, and went. They had no idea where it was they were going to,
just that they were going. At one time I figured that was a uniquely
American thing. But I later read descriptions of the German response
to Anzio that were very similar. )

Henry H.

Henry_H@Q wrote:

"William R Thompson" wrote:

[snip]

That's what I was taught when getting my degrees in hysteria, er, history.
My favorite example has to do with the "Nuts!" event at Bastogne.
There are several accounts of exactly what was said; the accounts
come from people who were there--and they don't match up.

After my first reply to this message I did some Googleing. I still
can't find any mention of the "Nuts" document.

However, I did find this on wiki:

The 1947-1949 Freedom Train was proposed by Attorney General Tom C.
Clark as a way to reawaken Americans to their taken-for-granted
principles of liberty in the post-war years. The idea soon got the
approval of President Harry S. Truman and everything else fell into
place. Top Marines were selected to attend to the train and its famous
documents. The Marine contingent was led by Col. Robert F. Scott.

Well-armed and alert, I trust. The Liberty Bell had been sent on an
earlier tour (in the Twenties, I think--details escape me) during which
tour bits and pieces were hacked off the rim as souvenirs.

I am very sceptical of authority in reference sources, I certainly
don't think the EB is very authorative. "Trust everyone, but cut the
cards, anyway."

The history department's attitude was "multiple references, please,
and even then we may laugh."

But, as a friend use to say "Even a blind pig finds some nuts."

There are a LOT of nuts on wiki.

Both metric and SAE.

--Bill Thompson

On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 03:40:31 GMT, "William R Thompson"
wrote:

[snip]

That's what I was taught when getting my degrees in hysteria, er, history.
My favorite example has to do with the "Nuts!" event at Bastogne.
There are several accounts of exactly what was said; the accounts
come from people who were there--and they don't match up.

After my first reply to this message I did some Googleing. I still
can't find any mention of the "Nuts" document.

However, I did find this on wiki:



*****************

The 1947-1949 Freedom Train was proposed by Attorney General Tom C.
Clark as a way to reawaken Americans to their taken-for-granted
principles of liberty in the post-war years. The idea soon got the
approval of President Harry S. Truman and everything else fell into
place. Top Marines were selected to attend to the train and its famous
documents. The Marine contingent was led by Col. Robert F. Scott.

The train carried the original versions of the United States
Constitution, Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights on
its tour of more than 300 cities in all 48 states. As Alaska and
Hawaii didn't gain statehood until 1959, this train toured all of the
US States that existed at the time.


*****************

I saw it when it stopped in Atlanta, Ga. on Jan. 2, 1948/

I am very sceptical of authority in reference sources, I certainly
don't think the EB is very authorative. "Trust everyone, but cut the
cards, anyway."

But, as a friend use to say "Even a blind pig finds some nuts."

There are a LOT of nuts on wiki.

Various kinds.

No matter what you know, you don't know that you know everything until
you check wiki.


Henry H.