Iowa Aviation Weather...en Espanol

In article om,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

Hamish (for whom American English is definitely foreign :-))

So, let me get this straight:

You're saying that Spanish is *not* a foreign language in the United
States, simply because a large portion of people here are originally
from Spanish-speaking countries?

I'm not saying anything of the sort (forgive me for asking, but is
English is a foreign language for you? That might explain a few things
about this exchange...).

Let's review your stance. You've said that one of the indigenous native
languages of the United States -- Lakota -- is a foreign language in the
US. You've claimed that Spanish, the native (first, and, in some cases,
only) language for millions of natural-born citizens in this country, a
language whose native use predates that of English in large parts of the
US, and whose history in many parts of this country as a first language
is long and unbroken, is a foreign language in the US.

So what *do* you mean by "foreign language"? Do you mean "not the
official language"? If so, why not say so (while keeping in mind that
the US doesn't have an official language in the same sense that, say,
France does, or the Soviet Union did)? Do you mean "language spoken by
foreigners or immigrants?" If so, why not say so (while bearing in mind
that I'm both a foreigner and an immigrant here, and since English is my
native language, by those rules that would make English a foreign
language here...)? Do you mean "dominant language"? If so, why not say
so (but does that mean you believe that Scots Gaelic is a foreign
language in the United Kingdom, or that the hundreds of Aboriginal
languages in Australia are foreign languages there)?

As a native English speaker and a long-time resident of the United
States, your usage baffles me -- maybe you can spell out precisely what
makes a language "foreign" in your mind, and how your definition
compares to more traditional, conservative definitions that talk in
terms of (for example) languages not spoken by the indigenous people of
a certain place.


By that definition, German is not a foreign language in Iowa and
Wisconsin. Neither is Italian. Or Irish.

If you say so (I certainly haven't said so).

Or have you come up with some intellectually gymnastic limitation on
your theory, like "it's only not a foreign language if the speakers
have not been here more than 'x' generations..."?

The gymnastics seem to be yours -- but again, before I get too impolite
about your reading skills, is English perhaps a foreign language for
you? That might excuse your strawman argument in the paragraph
immediately above.


Honestly, you guys are hilarious!

Well, I wouldn't laugh too hard -- the joke seems to be on the person
who believes that a country's indigenous languages are somehow foreign
in that country...

Hamish

So what *do* you mean by "foreign language"?

My apologies. You have gone to extreme lengths to explain your
ignorance of the situation, thanks. I didn't realize that the concept
of a "foreign language" needed to be defined, but here goes:

A "foreign language" in the context of the United States of America
(and in the context of this discussion) is a language that is not
spoken by the majority of people since the country's inception.

Since every major founding document, every major newspaper, and (to
bring this discussion into the 21st century) every major American
website was/is published in English, we consider every language other
than English to be "foreign".

For further clarification, please refer to the definition of the word
"foreign", available in any of the free on-line dictionaries.

Your example of such indigenous languages as Lakota and Spanish are
not relevant to this discussion, as they pre-date the creation of the
United States. They were never considered to be official languages of
the United States, and may therefore be defined as "foreign", both in
fact and in the context of this discussion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Hamish Reid wrote:

So, once again, what makes Spanish a "foreign language" in the US?

Well, for one thing the Declaration of Indepence was written in English
and all the other great documents that define our politics and unique
American perspective on freedom are in English.

So basically, in order to really understand what it is to be an
"American" and the unique perspective on freedoms the founding fathers
had in mind back then you sort of have to speak an be able to read and
understand English.

But in this Politicially Correct environment we live in today who
cares.... they don't really teach history anymore in public school... we
might 'offend' someone.

Hamish Reid writes:

None of that really answers the question: in what sense is Spanish a
foreign language in the US? As several people have pointed out, it
predates English in these parts by a long way, and has been spoken
continuously 'round here by immigrants and native-born citizens alike
for all of that time.

It is not the predominant language in the U.S., irrespective of any historical
or minority use.

Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?

Yes.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Hamish Reid writes:
Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?

Yes.

Amazing. So in what country is Lakota a native language?

Jim Logajan writes:

Amazing. So in what country is Lakota a native language?

The country or area in which the natives speak it. But if it is not the
predominant language in the country, it's still a foreign language.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Jim Logajan writes:

Amazing. So in what country is Lakota a native language?

The country or area in which the natives speak it. But if it is not the
predominant language in the country, it's still a foreign language.

There is no definition of "foreign" that makes it synonymous with "non-
dominant". You've simply added a new definition to an existing word for
personal reasons.

Amazing. So in what country is Lakota a native language?

The country or area in which the natives speak it. But if it is not the
predominant language in the country, it's still a foreign language.

There is no definition of "foreign" that makes it synonymous with "non-
dominant". You've simply added a new definition to an existing word for
personal reasons.

According to Wikipedia, Lakota is one of the Sioux languages.

BTW, this is a great example of what irritates me, and possibly others with
regard to MX.

Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?

In the context of modern-day America, and this conversation, of
course.

Really, I don't care WHAT language is mandated. Hell, let's use
Sioux, if you want.

But one must be decided upon and adhered to, officially, or America is
doomed to become Yugoslavia.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 04:47:24 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com):

Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?

In the context of modern-day America, and this conversation, of
course.

Really, I don't care WHAT language is mandated. Hell, let's use
Sioux, if you want.

But one must be decided upon and adhered to, officially, or America is
doomed to become Yugoslavia.

I sincerely doubt that. Yes, English is more dominant now than it was when
you were born, but now it is losing a little of that dominance. You need to
get out of Iowa once in awhile. Visit Washington, D.C., or New Mexico, or
Puerto Rico. We have managed to hold this country together for more than two
centuries despite the fact that so many languages are spoken in it. I suspect
it will continue for a few more.

You must believe that America has become weak indeed if it can no longer
tolerate what has been the situation since its inception. I suspect that the
problem is more that we now have better communication in the country, and a
lot of folks who live in what were relatively isolated, English speaking,
farming communities are suddenly discovering that the rest of America is not
like that. And they don't like it.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor