Boarding with engines running

Mxsmanic wrote:

snip


Incidentally, if you don't like the mundane things, that's all the more reason
to fly a simulator, where you can skip all the boring stuff.


It seems to me, that by flying a simulator only, and swearing away REAL
flight and REAL life, you are missing out on all of REAL life.


In real life, you can't avoid the boring parts and just keep the interesting
parts. You blow several hours of your time in boring activity for a few
minutes in the air, and it costs a fortune. That's not very cost-effective
compared to simulation.

I'll take my "boring", expensive flights in my grumman cheetah over a
cheaper "more exciting" flight in an extra 300 or MU2 on MSFS ANY day...
I would bet most people feel the same. How can you compare real life
to MSFS? Boring parts of flying a REAL plane? Now I have heard everything.




Its like the saying that a picture is worth a thousand words,
similarly one real flight can be worth a thousand simulator flights.


Or it can be a waste of time.

Sitting in front of a computer for hours on end pretending to be flying
with no plans to ever fly a real plane sounds like a perfect definition
of a waste of time...



I have more time than money

Obviously you have a lot of time on your hands. I know lots of people
who have little money who fly. I think there is more to it than that.

Tim writes:

It seems to me, that by flying a simulator only, and swearing away REAL
flight and REAL life, you are missing out on all of REAL life.

You have your preferences, and I have mine. You should not assume that real
flying is unconditionally preferable to simulated flying. If that were true,
there would be very few simmers and a lot more pilots.

I'll take my "boring", expensive flights in my grumman cheetah over a
cheaper "more exciting" flight in an extra 300 or MU2 on MSFS ANY day ...

That's your choie.

I would bet most people feel the same.

I wouldn't. There are a lot more people playing with simulators than flying
for real.

How can you compare real life to MSFS?

It's a simulation, the comparison is implicit.

Boring parts of flying a REAL plane? Now I have heard everything.

There are parts that are boring. Sitting for ten hours watching waypoints
drift by can get pretty boring. Some pilots fall asleep.

Sitting in front of a computer for hours on end pretending to be flying
with no plans to ever fly a real plane sounds like a perfect definition
of a waste of time...

To whom? I think it's fun, and relaxing.

Obviously you have a lot of time on your hands.

Not really; but I have no money at all, so I still have more time than money.

I know lots of people who have little money who fly.

They have a lot more money than I do.

I think there is more to it than that.

Certainly. It's a question of money, time, red tape, overhead, regulations,
and many other things. It's a lot of trouble to go to for an experience that
is nearly identical to simulation.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

If your prefer simming over RL, you should go back to the sim NG's and leave
the rest of us alone.

Incidentally, if you don't like the mundane things, that's all the more reason
to fly a simulator, where you can skip all the boring stuff.

Actually it depends on what you consider to be "boring stuff". I
consider the entire act of flying in a sim to be boring, the reason
being that it cannot even qualify as a challenging video game. IMO,
the reason for flying in real life is that it is a challenge and
challenges are fun. It is a challenge not because flying is hard, (it
isn't any harder than flying a sim) but because there is a penalty,
sometimes severe and always very real, for almost every mistake you
make. In real life my pulse goes up every time I have to go around
with full flaps with trees looming at the end of the runway but on a
sim I can do the same even while sipping beer. The reason is that the
stakes are different and a sim can never simulate the most important
aspect of real life which is reality. Ironically this very fact also
makes a sim so valuable for certain aspects of training. But would I
swap my racing pulse for the safety and comfort of my simulator?
Never!
Have you ever seen trapeze artists perform without a safety net? It
costs more to watch them perform without safety nets. Why? Because
people pay more when the stakes are real. Similarly it costs more to
fly in real life than in a simulator because the stakes are real.

In real life, you can't avoid the boring parts and just keep the interesting
parts. You blow several hours of your time in boring activity for a few
minutes in the air, and it costs a fortune. That's not very cost-effective
compared to simulation.

Depends on what you mean by cost-effective. I would not trade my 100+
hrs in the air for anything. There is no question that sims are
amazing and can be used as training aids very effectively but they
cannot make me sweat or feel nervous or make my pulse race.. which is
why I don't take them seriously except to marvel at the progress
technology has made.

Little Endian writes:

Actually it depends on what you consider to be "boring stuff".

Yes.

In my case, I consider going to and from the airport to be boring. I consider
not being close to home at the end of a flight to be hugely inconvenient. I
consider paying $250 an hour for each hour of flight to be very stressful. I
consider having to spend thousands of dollars and trudge through endless
paperwork just to be allowed to fly to be unacceptably onerous. I consider a
requirement that one be in Olympic condition to get a license to be an
unnecessary burden. I consider the inaccessibility of ownership of an
aircraft to be a major disappointment. I consider the possibility of being
killed to be an uncomfortably high risk. I consider the absence of bathrooms
on some aircraft to be a major inconvenience.

These are some of the reasons why I fly in simulation. Simulation preserves
most of the parts I like, while eliminating the parts I don't.

Lots of people engage in simulation of lots of things, for similar reasons.
Many people engage in combat simulations, for example, because real combat has
too many disadvantages.

I consider the entire act of flying in a sim to be boring, the reason
being that it cannot even qualify as a challenging video game.

Interesting. I find most video games boring ... except realistic simulations.
The games I like most are flight simulation, the Sims, and Sim City. Standard
FPS games leave me creaking with boredom in only a few seconds.

IMO, the reason for flying in real life is that it is a challenge and
challenges are fun.

Flying is a challenge in simulation, too. I'm surprised by how many people
cannot successfully take off or land in a simulator. This includes some
pilots, or at least the ones who have become dependent on physical sensations
(tin-can pilots and the like).

It is a challenge not because flying is hard, (it
isn't any harder than flying a sim) but because there is a penalty,
sometimes severe and always very real, for almost every mistake you
make.

Some people enjoy risking their lives; others find it an obstacle to
enjoyment.

In real life my pulse goes up every time I have to go around
with full flaps with trees looming at the end of the runway but on a
sim I can do the same even while sipping beer.

Simulation only works if you take it seriously.

I'll even go so far as to say that people who consistently treat simulation as
mere gaming may also treat real flight the same way, because this has its
basis in their personality. The same type of personality that blows off
checklists in simulation because "it's not real life, anyway," may also do the
same thing in real life, with some similar dismissal as rationalization.

Conversely, someone who can force himself to take simulation seriously--even
knowing that it's not real--should also be able to force himself to do things
by the book in real life, even when those things seem unnecessary.

The reason is that the
stakes are different and a sim can never simulate the most important
aspect of real life which is reality.

Reality might also be the least desirable part of the experience.

People read books and watch movies about things that they would never wish to
experience in real life. They enjoy reading about them and watching them, but
they don't want any reality behind it.

But would I swap my racing pulse for the safety and comfort of my simulator?
Never!

I find a racing pulse to be a distraction. There is much about flying to
appreciate, and having one's thoughts clouded by adrenalin ruins many of those
things. It's hard to appreciate the beauty of the Rocky Mountains when you
are hurtling towards them uncontrollably.

Have you ever seen trapeze artists perform without a safety net? It
costs more to watch them perform without safety nets. Why? Because
people pay more when the stakes are real. Similarly it costs more to
fly in real life than in a simulator because the stakes are real.

No, it costs more in real life than in a simulator simply because it is real
life, and the expensive parts cannot be deleted.

I'm surprised so many people mention the danger of flying as an attraction.
They must be high in testosterone. Personally, I think that if you feel
yourself at risk or in danger while flying, you're doing something wrong.

I hope airline pilots don't feel this way.

Depends on what you mean by cost-effective. I would not trade my 100+
hrs in the air for anything. There is no question that sims are
amazing and can be used as training aids very effectively but they
cannot make me sweat or feel nervous or make my pulse race.. which is
why I don't take them seriously except to marvel at the progress
technology has made.

So you are a thrillseeker. Quite a few GA pilots seem to be thrillseekers.
But we know what the safety experts say about them, don't we?

In my view, if my pulse is racing and I'm sweating, I've failed as a pilot.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:

In my view, if my pulse is racing and I'm sweating, I've failed as a
pilot.

Don't worry, you don't have a pulse. You've failed as a ****ing human
being.
Now just go away, find some other virtual sandbox to play in..........

Mxsmanic wrote:
In my case, I consider going to and from the airport to be boring.

I find breathing to be quite boring, as well. May I please have a
simulator where I can pretend to carry out aerobic metabolism without
those nasty boring bits like breathing, eating, or excreting waste?


I consider
not being close to home at the end of a flight to be hugely inconvenient.

Assuming that you don't live in the middle of a large bog (as trolls are
wont to do, I'm told), there's a GA airport within walking distance of
your house. Promise.

I
consider paying $250 an hour for each hour of flight to be very stressful.

When I did my training, I was paying $80/hour, wet. One of my good
friends knew an owner and could get $39/hour, wet. Hell, I was only
paying $137/hour at ERAU, and THAT was the high price at the field.
$250/hour will get you something between a twin and a turboprop, wet.

Of course, you should learn the golden concept of pro rata. Bring a few
of your good friends along (you DO have friends, right?), and suddenly
that 250 is only $83 and change.

I
consider having to spend thousands of dollars and trudge through endless
paperwork just to be allowed to fly to be unacceptably onerous.

See the above. If putting your name and home address on a form is too
difficult, it's a wonder how you managed to get Usenet access in the
first place.

I consider a
requirement that one be in Olympic condition to get a license to be an
unnecessary burden.

I think you will find that many pilots are hardly Olympic-class
athletes. More like "healthy and generally not covered in green, scaly
warts".

I consider the inaccessibility of ownership of an
aircraft to be a major disappointment.

Something like 75% of all GA pilots either rent or have a fractional
ownership, neither of which is impossible (or even improbable) on even a
modest income.

I consider the possibility of being
killed to be an uncomfortably high risk.

You could die right now, reading this post. BAM, brain aneurysm (caused,
no doubt, by the sudden ingestion of too much logic). They'll find you
two weeks later, clutched over the keyboard, your body offering up the
most odoriferous effluence imaginable.

I consider the absence of bathrooms
on some aircraft to be a major inconvenience.

I told you to go before we left!

I'm surprised by how many people
cannot successfully take off or land in a simulator. This includes some
pilots, or at least the ones who have become dependent on physical sensations

.... or it indicates how important those sensations really are to the art
and style of flying (which you have wholeheartedly discounted, not
actually having felt them yourself). Flying is not all numbers and
formulas, do X and Y will always result, a cold calculation done in head
to achieve an unerring sum. There's a feel to this sort of thing.

Simulation only works if you take it seriously.

So does life, oddly enough.

The same type of personality that blows off
checklists in simulation because "it's not real life, anyway," may also do the
same thing in real life, with some similar dismissal as rationalization.

Or perhaps it is that some people are able to distinguish between
virtual existence and the corporeal world, and understand that their
actions in one do not affect the outcome in the other.

Also, patently false generalizations by non-qualified personnel FTL.

Reality might also be the least desirable part of the experience.

And yet reality is what the simulation (and similarly, the "serious" sim
pilot) strives for, in all dealings. So, no, if anything, simulations
should be MORE like real flying.

They enjoy reading about them and watching them, but
they don't want any reality behind it.

Reading a good murder mystery doesn't make you any more a detective than
flying a virtual 737 makes you qualified to offer edicts on procedure or
operation.

It's hard to appreciate the beauty of the Rocky Mountains when you
are hurtling towards them uncontrollably.

Which is, oddly enough, why pilots spend all that time doing that
"training" lark, so that they can keep from doing any hurtling, much
less uncontrollably so.

---
Mxsmanic wrote:

There's nothing magic about being a real pilot

Not that you would know, being a feckless, cross/troll-posting,
arrogant, venomous, whingebag shut-in, without the stones to partake in
what he's "trying" to "simulate".

There, now your defeat is signatory on BOTH NG's. I couldn't possibly
have imagined the depth and breadth of your utter foolishness could
extend as far as it does here. "Surely, they're exaggerating" "He
couldn't be that stupid, could he?", I said to myself.

The rumors were true.

TheSmokingGnu

On Feb 26, 4:50 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
lots of stuff

You are, by far, the best troll I have ever seen. Well Done.

Cheers,

Al, who spends $100 an hour to fly, without a medical and with
virtually no paperwork.

Flying is a challenge in simulation, too. I'm surprised by how many people
cannot successfully take off or land in a simulator. This includes some

Then I think your simulator does not really simulate flying of an
airplane properly. I cannot consider a simulator to be worth anything
if a real life pilot cannot fly it without any problems. That is the
test of any simulator and seems like your sim fails it quite badly.

pilots, or at least the ones who have become dependent on physical sensations
(tin-can pilots and the like).

What is a tin-can pilot?

Simulation only works if you take it seriously.

Yes, but what you are talking about is not simulation of flying
because according to you, real life pilots cannot takeoff or land in
your simulator.

things. It's hard to appreciate the beauty of the Rocky Mountains when you
are hurtling towards them uncontrollably.

The simulator does not depict the beauty of the Rocky Mountains in any
way. I have hiked all over the Rockies and its not possible to
replicate that beauty of Romo in a simulator with fake images. When I
get a chance I will fly around the Rockies too but only in a real
airplane.

In my view, if my pulse is racing and I'm sweating, I've failed as a pilot.

Maybe so but that is how we learn to become better real life pilots.
Its an educational process and it never ends which is why its so
highly valued.

Wow MX, and you wonder why you infuriate this board so much.

I think the biggest fact that your missing here is that for us 'real
pilots', flying is among the greatest and most visceral passions in
our lives... The piloting community is linked primarily by passion
and emotion for our past-time, not simply policy and procedure.

Why else do you think we dedicate such a high percentage of our lives
resources to one hobby?

Yes.

In my case, I consider going to and from the airport to be boring. I consider
not being close to home at the end of a flight to be hugely inconvenient. I
consider paying $250 an hour for each hour of flight to be very stressful. I
consider having to spend thousands of dollars and trudge through endless
paperwork just to be allowed to fly to be unacceptably onerous. I consider a
requirement that one be in Olympic condition to get a license to be an
unnecessary burden. I consider the inaccessibility of ownership of an
aircraft to be a major disappointment. I consider the possibility of being
killed to be an uncomfortably high risk. I consider the absence of bathrooms
on some aircraft to be a major inconvenience.

And right here you have just proved that you 'don't get it'... People
here do not value your opinion because, quite frankly, why should they
listen to some cocky 'arm-chair pilot' who is telling them how to do
what they eagerly and willingly accept each and every one of the
inconveniences and risks you mention to do because it simply means
that much to them? You have just admitted that you don't have the
passion for flight, stop telling us that we shouldn't either.

These are some of the reasons why I fly in simulation. Simulation preserves
most of the parts I like, while eliminating the parts I don't.

I flew flight simulators from the time I was 8 until I was 23.
Simulators are _sorry_ excuses for reality, that is a simple truth.
ALL they are good for is teaching some of the more mundane aspects of
aviation in a sterile, passionless environment. If those pedantic
details are all that interests you about aviation... well, I'm sorry.
But you absolutely need to understand that there is far more why we
fly than anything that can be portrayed in simulation...

Lots of people engage in simulation of lots of things, for similar reasons.
Many people engage in combat simulations, for example, because real combat has
too many disadvantages.

People take their combat simulations pretty damn far (airsoft,
paintball) because combat simulations suffer the same lack of
'experience' that flight simulations do.

Flying is a challenge in simulation, too. I'm surprised by how many people
cannot successfully take off or land in a simulator. This includes some
pilots, or at least the ones who have become dependent on physical sensations
(tin-can pilots and the like).

Its not about the challenge, its about simply 'being up there' with
all of the rights, privileges, and responsibilities entitled therein.

Simulation only works if you take it seriously.

I'll even go so far as to say that people who consistently treat simulation as
mere gaming may also treat real flight the same way, because this has its
basis in their personality. The same type of personality that blows off
checklists in simulation because "it's not real life, anyway," may also do the
same thing in real life, with some similar dismissal as rationalization.

That is a tremendously arrogant assumption for someone who has already
shown that he has absolutely no concept as to what motivates private
pilots.

Reality might also be the least desirable part of the experience.

How would you know?

How can you not see how tremendously infuriating it is to those of us
who willingly and happily spend a third of our lives resources flying
for the passion and meaning it brings our lives to have some 'kid'
with no comprehension of why we do it constantly second guessing and
trying to one-up us?

If you would keep your postings to simple questions and
clarifications, that would be one thing, but then to completely
discount the entire reason that we do it in the first place? And you
wonder why this board is so rude to you.

I find a racing pulse to be a distraction. There is much about flying to
appreciate, and having one's thoughts clouded by adrenalin ruins many of those
things. It's hard to appreciate the beauty of the Rocky Mountains when you
are hurtling towards them uncontrollably.

No, it costs more in real life than in a simulator simply because it is real
life, and the expensive parts cannot be deleted.

I'm surprised so many people mention the danger of flying as an attraction.
They must be high in testosterone. Personally, I think that if you feel
yourself at risk or in danger while flying, you're doing something wrong.


So you are a thrillseeker. Quite a few GA pilots seem to be thrillseekers.
But we know what the safety experts say about them, don't we?

In my view, if my pulse is racing and I'm sweating, I've failed as a pilot.

You mistake the simple passion of experience for some form of
irrational thrillseeking. Pilot's don't fly because its dangerous,
pilots fly because they can FLY... There really is no other way to
describe it...

Actually:

Consider this MX- To us, it feels like you are an intentionally deaf
(earplugged) person arguing with us about the sound of a symphony.
Sure, you can understand an learn all of the instruments, their
ranges, the music theory behind them, and you might even be able to
compose a few interesting pieces. You can get a lot 'in simulation',
and much of it is even admirable knowledge.

That said, you continue to argue with those of us who enjoy listening
to music about the value of ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING the music. If you
simply wanted to learn music theory that is one thing, but instead,
you actually cast judgment about the value of experiencing the very
act for which you have a passion for the mundane theory. Of course
we're going to think you're an arrogant prick- until you take the
earplugs out of your ears and go have a listen to the experience of
aviation, you've completely lost the forest for the trees.

I hope airline pilots don't feel this way.

I never picked up professional photography out of fear for loosing my
passion for it. Similarly, I would never fly professionally out of a
similar fear.

It is the passion that drives us, it is the experience that drives
us. There is nothing more beautiful than experiencing our world from
the heavens, everything else is just details.