Low fuel emergency in DFW

"Jim Macklin" writes:

That is not an option for all the other airplanes or ATC.

Yes, it is, when an emergency exists.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news

I don't think you understand the complexity of the airspace
around DFW, with arrival gates, departure corridors,
multiple runways.

It is not a 1 minute or a two minute exercise to "clear the
airspace" neither does a 10° heading change create legal
separation in one minute.


You don't understand how ATC works.

I think I have a pretty good understanding.

I do know that no controller from any facility with traffic
like DFW has responded. So, if there is a DFW or ATL or
ORD, LAX or SFO controller out there, how long would it take
to clear the required airspace v. just fitting the emergency
into the traffic.






"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
nk.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news |
| I don't think you understand the complexity of the
airspace
| around DFW, with arrival gates, departure corridors,
| multiple runways.
|
| It is not a 1 minute or a two minute exercise to "clear
the
| airspace" neither does a 10° heading change create legal
| separation in one minute.
|
|
| You don't understand how ATC works.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

I think I have a pretty good understanding.


Yes, but you don't actually have a good understanding.

"Jim Macklin" writes:

I don't think you understand the complexity of the airspace
around DFW, with arrival gates, departure corridors,
multiple runways.

No matter what the complexity, it only takes a few minutes to clear a path.

It is not a 1 minute or a two minute exercise to "clear the
airspace" neither does a 10° heading change create legal
separation in one minute.

Show me the transcripts and radar traces, so that I can see how long it
actually takes.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Jim,

I don't think you understand the complexity of the airspace
around DFW,


Ok, I'll be blunt: I don't think you understand you have been answered
here by controllers who know EXACTLY what that kind of emergency would
mean to operations at DFW. And they have told you repeatedly that it is
a non-issue. Why do you continue to insist otherwise?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Because I think they are wrong and they have not said just
how they would have "cleared the airspace" in less time than
was available to allow the straight in approach and landing?

The controllers knew the position of each airplane and they
also knew the time for a straight in approach. They knew
that it would be quicker the way it was done, not the way
the PIC wanted in a "panics" state of mind.

The plane did not flame-out, there were no mid-airs, and
nobody died or was injured.

I would bet my lottery winnings from last night [did not
win] that the re-training ATC got was to include statements
of their rationalizations about traffic and flight times "on
the tape."



"Thomas Borchert" wrote in
message ...
| Jim,
|
| I don't think you understand the complexity of the
airspace
| around DFW,
|
|
| Ok, I'll be blunt: I don't think you understand you have
been answered
| here by controllers who know EXACTLY what that kind of
emergency would
| mean to operations at DFW. And they have told you
repeatedly that it is
| a non-issue. Why do you continue to insist otherwise?
|
| --
| Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

Because I think they are wrong and they have not said just
how they would have "cleared the airspace" in less time than
was available to allow the straight in approach and landing?


So because you have no idea how it can be done you concluded it can't be
done.

It's been stated here the airplane was about 80 miles from DFW, I don't know
if that's correct but nobody has disputed it so we'll assume it is. We know
it was being worked by center so it sounds about right. So figure at least
15 minutes from touchdown, that's a lot of time. Most of the arriving
aircraft already within approach control airspace, perhaps all of them, can
get on the ground before the emergency arrives. Other DFW bound aircraft
will be held at arrival fixes or enroute. A flow control message will be
sent to stop departures to DFW from at least the closer airports. Most of
the departure aircraft that have already taxied will be able to depart
before the emergency arrives, those that haven't taxied will be held on the
ramp. Traffic at satellite fields will be largely unaffected. It certainly
isn't necessary to "turn the airport around" or sterilize the airspace.
What made you think it was?

"Jim Macklin" wrote in
news
I don't think you understand the complexity of the airspace
around DFW, with arrival gates, departure corridors,
multiple runways.

It is not a 1 minute or a two minute exercise to "clear the
airspace" neither does a 10° heading change create legal
separation in one minute.

Oh, come on! Didn't you see "Pushing Tin"?



Seriously, though, based on the "10 miles north of Bonham" that was described
in the WFAA report (assuming that was accurate), the emergency was called
about 70 NM out.

At 450 Kts, that's about 10 minutes before the plane is within range. And
presumably, once they get below 10,000', they'll slow down to 250 Kts
allowing even more time.

Plenty of time to vector even dozens of planes out of the way safely.

If those distances are correct, yes ATC did not do what it
should have done. But , do all controllers have hot wives
who screw around?


"Judah" wrote in message
. ..
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in
| news |
| I don't think you understand the complexity of the
airspace
| around DFW, with arrival gates, departure corridors,
| multiple runways.
|
| It is not a 1 minute or a two minute exercise to "clear
the
| airspace" neither does a 10° heading change create legal
| separation in one minute.
|
| Oh, come on! Didn't you see "Pushing Tin"?
|
|
|
| Seriously, though, based on the "10 miles north of Bonham"
that was described
| in the WFAA report (assuming that was accurate), the
emergency was called
| about 70 NM out.
|
| At 450 Kts, that's about 10 minutes before the plane is
within range. And
| presumably, once they get below 10,000', they'll slow down
to 250 Kts
| allowing even more time.
|
| Plenty of time to vector even dozens of planes out of the
way safely.
|