Low towing thought

"Graeme Cant" gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote in message
...
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"Graeme Cant" gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote in message
...
In Oz it's a no-no to pop up into high tow as you release (with all due
respect to Oscar's experience and SA's rules) because it's been known to
initiate a kiting situation. I guess our experience is that a 'slow' move
through a turbulent slipstream into high tow isn't all that easy to
accomplish for ab initio and low experience pilots...

That trip up (and/or down) through the wake is part of the drill for the
"boxing the wake" manuver. I would never solo a student who couldn't do
that.

Vaughn

Good.

Your point is?

My point is that the slow "trip through the wake" should not be a problem,
even for ab initio and low experience pilots. It is something that is easily
trained for and practiced.

Vaughn

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"Graeme Cant" gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote in message
...
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"Graeme Cant" gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote in message
...
In Oz it's a no-no to pop up into high tow as you release (with all due
respect to Oscar's experience and SA's rules) because it's been known to
initiate a kiting situation. I guess our experience is that a 'slow' move
through a turbulent slipstream into high tow isn't all that easy to
accomplish for ab initio and low experience pilots...
That trip up (and/or down) through the wake is part of the drill for the
"boxing the wake" manuver. I would never solo a student who couldn't do
that.

Vaughn
Good.

Your point is?

My point is that the slow "trip through the wake" should not be a problem,
even for ab initio and low experience pilots. It is something that is easily
trained for and practiced.

1. In my instructing experience boxing the wake is a moderately
difficult manoeuvre to carry out in a well-controlled way for ab initio
and low experience pilots. Many experienced pilots botch boxing the
wake on their annual check. That's why instructors set it as an
exercise. I suspect that's why you set it.

2. Boxing the wake doesn't actually involve a trip directly through the
slipstream.

GC

Vaughn

On Mar 5, 3:50 pm, Martin Gregorie wrote:

when you release, do you just pull the bung in the low position
or do you pop up above the wake first?

If you release while still in low tow, aside from what happens to the
rope, how does the tuggie know that you have gone? Radio?

When tugging I have often wasted a few hundred feet of full-power
climb when the glider on the back has gone without either a mild
"twang" on the rope or a good visual indication by pulling up and
banking (from high tow) and seeing this in the tug's rear-view
mirror.

Ian Strachan
Lasham Tuggie

Ian Strachan wrote:

If you release while still in low tow, aside from what happens to the
rope, how does the tuggie know that you have gone? Radio?

One of the useful points of low tow is that a glider releasing causes a
definite nose down trim change (I'm told - I don't tow).

When tugging I have often wasted a few hundred feet of full-power
climb when the glider on the back has gone without either a mild
"twang" on the rope or a good visual indication by pulling up and
banking (from high tow) and seeing this in the tug's rear-view
mirror.

Perhaps some tuggies have a more sensitive bum than others?

GC

Ian Strachan
Lasham Tuggie

On Mar 5, 10:50 am, Martin Gregorie wrote:
I did annual checks about a month ago, when we were encouraged to try
low position on the way up for spin checks. I decided that I like low
tow and will use it in future, but before I do so there's one thing I'd
like to ask the Aussies and other habitual low towers: when you release
do you just pull the bung in the low position or do you pop up above the
wake first?

I fly a Libelle, which normally tows with a lot of sag in the rope, even
with the wheel down, and it occurred to me that releasing in the low
position could cause the rings to pass close to the canopy or even hit
it. At least the Libelle has a nose hook: if this is an issue, would it
be even worse with a belly hook?

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |


Proper release procedure for low tow is to release from that position.
How do we know the "right" position? It is just below the tug wake
such that occasionally you will feel the wake on the top of the
vertical tail. Most people not well trained tend to fly too low.
When you release in "proper" position, the rope will go straight
forward and not up over the glider. If it goes up, you were too low.
Tuggie will feel release as in high tow. The difference is that he
will feel no trim change due to glider being on the thrust line of the
tug in low tow.
These comments based on 10,000+ tows at the back end and 5000+ at the
front end in low tow.
Cheers UH

Proper release procedure for low tow is to release from that position.
How do we know the "right" position? It is just below the tug wake
such that occasionally you will feel the wake on the top of the
vertical tail. Most people not well trained tend to fly too low.
When you release in "proper" position, the rope will go straight
forward and not up over the glider. If it goes up, you were too low.
Tuggie will feel release as in high tow. The difference is that he
will feel no trim change due to glider being on the thrust line of the
tug in low tow.
These comments based on 10,000+ tows at the back end and 5000+ at the
front end in low tow.
Cheers UH- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've flown with UH's club here in the U.S., Valley Soaring
(Middletown, NY), which uses low tow as standard. My glider only has a
belly hook but I never had any problems releasing without any special
maneuvering. I prefer high tow but I do use low tow for long aerotows
(e.g., when retrieving) because it's less work. As UH says, if the
tug's wake is bumping the vertical tail occasionally, you're in the
right position.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

(from OZ)
heard an interesting radio chat when last at the feild, this is the shortened version
tuggie- "(glider id)your too low, please come up higher"
I assume all the waggles and signs were also going on, then, with no radio response heard from the glider
tuggie-"(glider id) I am going to have to release you as I am running out of down elevator authority, tow higher immediately"
shortly after, tuggie advises feild that he has released the glider and is returning to the pie cart for a new rope, no big deal.
Please dont read into this what is not there. I beleive there was perhaps a radio failure in the glider as well, but all said, this was an extreme case and there was no problems or danger during the whole process. The chatter went on over a period of a couple of minutes, the tuggie did not sound bothered at any time (to me)

Now imagine if this occured in a high tow situation, with the glider too high -all reversed.
The tuggie would have about 3 milliseconds to release before being in grave danger of going in.
Thats why we low tow.

I was taught to release the rope, visually ensure it was gone (and say so to the instructor) then turn away (right in OZ). In turbulence I have seen the rings a couple of times beside me after release, but havent been hit by them, I daresay it does happen. In reality your doing the same speed as the rings/rope so it should only be a tap anyhow.
The tug pulls the rope away fairly smartly, I have not been a tuggie, but I have not heard of a tow continuing far because the tug hadnt noticed the glider was missing!

I always release in lift, too. I am in rising air, the tug has just passed through it and is sinking, usually, so the system works well. I am often amazed at people saying they pulled the plug at 2500' or 3000' or wherever, only to find no lift and return to the feild.
Give yourself a minimum release height specific to the day and circumstances, go past that height and wait behind the tug untill you hit a thermal. Get off, turn right, thermal, and go XC. simple



bagger

so what happened to that poor glider in low tow when 200ft of rope went back
over the top?

BT

"bagmaker" wrote in message
...

(from OZ)
heard an interesting radio chat when last at the feild, this is the
shortened version
tuggie- "(glider id)your too low, please come up higher"
I assume all the waggles and signs were also going on, then, with no
radio response heard from the glider
tuggie-"(glider id) I am going to have to release you as I am running
out of down elevator authority, tow higher immediately"
shortly after, tuggie advises feild that he has released the glider and
is returning to the pie cart for a new rope, no big deal.
Please dont read into this what is not there. I beleive there was
perhaps a radio failure in the glider as well, but all said, this was
an extreme case and there was no problems or danger during the whole
process. The chatter went on over a period of a couple of minutes, the
tuggie did not sound bothered at any time (to me)

Now imagine if this occured in a high tow situation, with the glider
too high -all reversed.
The tuggie would have about 3 milliseconds to release before being in
grave danger of going in.
Thats why we low tow.

I was taught to release the rope, visually ensure it was gone (and say
so to the instructor) then turn away (right in OZ). In turbulence I
have seen the rings a couple of times beside me after release, but
havent been hit by them, I daresay it does happen. In reality your
doing the same speed as the rings/rope so it should only be a tap
anyhow.
The tug pulls the rope away fairly smartly, I have not been a tuggie,
but I have not heard of a tow continuing far because the tug hadnt
noticed the glider was missing!

I always release in lift, too. I am in rising air, the tug has just
passed through it and is sinking, usually, so the system works well. I
am often amazed at people saying they pulled the plug at 2500' or 3000'
or wherever, only to find no lift and return to the feild.
Give yourself a minimum release height specific to the day and
circumstances, go past that height and wait behind the tug untill you
hit a thermal. Get off, turn right, thermal, and go XC. simple



bagger




--
bagmaker

This topic is most interesting. I was never taught the low tow, or
presented with the concept at any of the 3 places I took lessons
(Estrella, Seminole Lakes and Turf, 3 years ago). How is it easier for
the glider driver? Wouldn't it create more work for the tug driver?

Are there any enthusiasts of the low tow who are also enthusiasts of
high wing loading for those good days? I've been in the "low tow"
position unintentionally at max wing loading when the tug driver musta
thought he was pulling a 2-33. Seems like there would be no room for
error if one started out in that position, and the tug then slowed
down!

~ted/2NO

"Tuno" wrote in message
oups.com...
This topic is most interesting. I was never taught the low tow, or
presented with the concept at any of the 3 places I took lessons
(Estrella, Seminole Lakes and Turf, 3 years ago). How is it easier for
the glider driver? Wouldn't it create more work for the tug driver?

Are there any enthusiasts of the low tow who are also enthusiasts of
high wing loading for those good days? I've been in the "low tow"
position unintentionally at max wing loading when the tug driver musta
thought he was pulling a 2-33. Seems like there would be no room for
error if one started out in that position, and the tug then slowed
down!

~ted/2NO


I probably flew hundreds of low tows at the old El Mirage Field. Gus
Brigleib insisted on low tow.

If you are flying a low performance glider, the technique for slack is to
just push the nose lower. The glider will just move down and take the slack
out. If, however, you are flying a Nimbus, it will outrun the tug pasing
under it. Pulling up puts in more slack even as the glider slows down
ending in a jerk.

In the end, I suspect the reason Gus insisted on low tow was the TG-3's he
used as trainers. It was very difficult for the instructor, sitting 8 feet
or so behind the student, to see the tug while in high tow. There was a lot
of rollover structure and greenhouse canopy between the front and rear
cockpits. Low tow gives the instructor a great view of the tug. I really
can't think of another reason for low tow.

BTW, low tow seems easier only because there are fewer references, like the
horizon, to help detect being out of position. If you can't tell you are
out of position, it seems OK. In fact, the opposite may be true. In high
tow, the tugs wingtip vortices tend to push a glider back to center
position. In low tow, they tend to pull it out of position.

Bill Daniels