chain of events

In article ,
Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:

UPS's don't need time to "Kick In" That is why thet are called
UnInteruptable Power Supplies.

UPS are usually designed to come online within a couple of cycles.

I have never seen a UPS that takes more than a fraction of a cycle to
transition to backup mode. In fact, units which are used in "mission
critical" applications are not the line interactive type as you seem
to be thinking about above, instead are dual online conversion. I
would assume that a UPS used for ILS equipment and radio
communications for ATC would be a mission critical design as opposed
to the less than reliable line interactive design. The dual online
conversion types are actually running off battery and an oscillator
all the time. There is no switching time.

But hey... What do I know...



Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message
...
An approach system doesn't have a UPS?

The article said it took a few seconds to kick in.

UPS's don't need time to "Kick In" That is why thet are called
UnInteruptable Power Supplies.

Generator power is another story. Typicall transfer times are
generally in the neighborhood of 10 seconds from a cold start to power
transfer.

So..was it really a UPS, or a backup generator? Remember, the story we got
was 2nd hand/anecdote.

On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S wrote:
KM wrote:


I dont know about the approach itself, but the power issue is very
believable. If the main transformer for the whole place let go, its VERY
likely that it takes 10 or more seconds for the generator to get up and
running. Also, if I understand right, the generators dont serve the
entire airport, just select facilities and one or two main runways.

Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
separate locations.Try to imagine (even if it did take that long to
restore power) how long it would take to fly from north of the
approach to 24R, then though final, and then across the final for the
south complex (Not diagonally mind you, but on a typicle intercept
heading)? Also, the copilot would have seen the A340 first, not the
captain.If you tried to check in with the tower and got no response,
wouldnt you go back to approach?
The thing that really gives this story away is that there is no way in
hell that a crew would ignore an RA while on an approach to an airport
with similtaneous approaches to parallel runways. Two crews if you
count the A340 guys.

The only thing that doesn't make any sense.. is why would I only be
reading about it on usenet... and not CNN. A NMAC usually makes big news.
This is your next clue Dave.I went back and read some of "Capt Doug's"
posts and he does know a bit about airliners, but his posts show a
lack of understanding of enough of the detail to actually fly
one.Judging from his posts I would say he is probably a flight
attendant at NWA who flys on the side.And I would say he spends alot
of time talking to pilots about flying.

"KM" wrote in message I went back and read some of "Capt Doug's"
posts and he does know a bit about airliners, but his posts show a
lack of understanding of enough of the detail to actually fly
one.Judging from his posts I would say he is probably a flight
attendant at NWA who flys on the side.And I would say he spends alot
of time talking to pilots about flying.

For those of you who know me personally, this answers itself.

D.

On Mar 9, 5:02 pm, "Capt.Doug" wrote:
"KM" wrote in message I went back and read some of "Capt Doug's"
posts and he does know a bit about airliners, but his posts show a
lack of understanding of enough of the detail to actually fly
one.Judging from his posts I would say he is probably a flight
attendant at NWA who flys on the side.And I would say he spends alot
of time talking to pilots about flying.

For those of you who know me personally, this answers itself.

D.

Doug, come on dude.You posted some answers to a couple of technical
questions on Boeings that didnt make any sense.My guess is that you
hang out with pilots on layovers alot and pick their brains, and maybe
even read through some manuals.I get the same thing at my work, and
once I met a flight attendant who had 8000 hours.
Furthermore, this is the internet, and how many people here know you
personally?If you are who you say you are, I can respect that, but
just tell me where you are based and the initials of your chief pilot
and I will look it up and offer you an appology.
KM
PS how does an autopilot "mimic the ILS in smooth air"?????

"KM" wrote in message
Doug, come on dude.You posted some answers to a couple of technical
questions on Boeings that didnt make any sense.

Hmm... I don't recall you posting with this name for very long, and yet you
have so much to offer the group (sarcasm).

My guess is that you
hang out with pilots on layovers alot and pick their brains, and maybe
even read through some manuals.I get the same thing at my work, and
once I met a flight attendant who had 8000 hours.

Yes, I do, and yes, you are guessing.

If you are who you say you are, I can respect that,

Hmmm... I've never seen respect shown in such a manner.

just tell me where you are based and the initials of your chief pilot
and I will look it up and offer you an appology.

Hmmm.... Give personal information to a suspected troll? I'm crazy, but
not stupid. You go first. If you aren't in CASS, please don't bother.

PS how does an autopilot "mimic the ILS in smooth air"?????

Pay attention here- If the airplane is trimmed for flying the ILS, and the
autopilot reverts to heading and pitch mode, the airplane will continue a
course very close to the ILS while in calm air. Of course you knew this but
wanted to see if I knew it, right?.

Bottom line is that I don't care to prove anything to you. I don't care what
you think. You can cajole, provoke, instigate, flame, and irritate others
here, but I don't care what you think. Have a good day.

D.

On Mar 9, 6:22 pm, "Capt.Doug" wrote:

Hmm... I don't recall you posting with this name for very long, and yet you
have so much to offer the group (sarcasm).

How much are you offering this group Doug.Marginaly accurate posts
about airliners?


Yes, I do, and yes, you are guessing.

See, I WAS right.

Hmmm... I've never seen respect shown in such a manner.

Hmmm..., how much respect do you expect when you go around pretending
to be something you are not.

Hmmm.... Give personal information to a suspected troll? I'm crazy, but
not stupid. You go first. If you aren't in CASS, please don't bother.

Suspected troll? Doug, I am not the one who sings his posts "Capt".Is
mentioning a city code personal information.I am not the one
misrepresenting myself.You are kind of being a jerk here, but I will
tell you what, I am based in SLC and I am the 3rd guy on the list
(alphabetically) with these initials.If you email me I will give you
my name and ALPA number.

Pay attention here- If the airplane is trimmed for flying the ILS, and the
autopilot reverts to heading and pitch mode, the airplane will continue a
course very close to the ILS while in calm air. Of course you knew this but
wanted to see if I knew it, right?.

You pay attention here Doug, you dont make a very good liar.

Bottom line is that I don't care to prove anything to you. I don't care what
you think. You can cajole, provoke, instigate, flame, and irritate others
here, but I don't care what you think. Have a good day.

Doug, Lighten up. No one is trying to provoke you.Some of your posts
do not cast the industry in a very favorable light (Like the post
about watching movies), and it is a little irritating when someone who
is masquerading as a airline pilot posts stupid stuff like this.I
would respectfully request that if you are going to continue these
kind of posts that you quit calling yourself "Captain" Doug.
D.

KMU

KM writes:

You posted some answers to a couple of technical
questions on Boeings that didnt make any sense.

If giving a wrong answer makes someone a non-pilot, then I'm not sure that
_anyone_ on this newsgroup is a real pilot.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Capt.Doug" wrote in message
news
"KM" wrote in message I went back and read some of "Capt Doug's"
posts and he does know a bit about airliners, but his posts show a
lack of understanding of enough of the detail to actually fly
one.Judging from his posts I would say he is probably a flight
attendant at NWA who flys on the side.And I would say he spends alot
of time talking to pilots about flying.

For those of you who know me personally, this answers itself.

Cap'n, he's been trying to extract his foot from his mouth for several
posts.

KM wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S wrote:

KM wrote:


I dont know about the approach itself, but the power issue is very
believable. If the main transformer for the whole place let go, its VERY
likely that it takes 10 or more seconds for the generator to get up and
running. Also, if I understand right, the generators dont serve the
entire airport, just select facilities and one or two main runways.


Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
separate locations.

I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.
Localizer in a shack off the end of the runway. Glideslope in yet
another shack about 1000 feet beyond the threshhold off to the side.
These shacks and boxes may be hundreds or thousands of yards from each
other.

I also know that if the BIG transformer that steps down from the big
high tension lines lets go, as in.. the BIG one in the substation.. then
the whole grid downstream of that transformer drops offline. That can
include an airport.

I once was a volunteer fireman for about 10 years... in that time, we
had a big snake go slithering up equipment in a substation one night. I
guess the hum and warmth of the stuff was just tooo inviting to resist.
He completed a short circuit that took out power to thousands of homes,
caused a PCB oil fed fire and had the fire marshall's office initially
investigating it as a terrorist act until we found the charred skeleton
of the snake. (Pre 2001 but after 1994 - the first WTC). The transformer
bit is quite credible, and if you are ever near one when one lets go,
its an underwear changing event.

As for UPS and such.. I've seen UPS's on computers, and on some radio
gear, but nothing big enough to run an airport or hospital
stand-alone.. maybe there are enough little boxes in the shacks, but if
what NEWPS says is true, then I doubt it.

The local big city fire department, at one time, had a hardened concrete
2 story windowless dispatch center, with 2 sources of incoming power
on lines, PLUS a generator with over a week's worth of fuel, PLUS a bank
of batteries to run it all until the generator could kick over. That
struck me as robust...

But again.. something like this happens, with big iron yanking and
banking on the final approach course, after an explosion at an airport,
with a power loss.... and never heard a word about it except here.. hmmm..