Directional control after touchdown...

Dan wrote:
On May 20, 6:34 am, john smith wrote:
Dan wrote:
What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?
Yoke full aft, full right aileron, left rudder as necessary to maintain
directional control, flaps up.

OK, so you're saying that based on the situation, I should trust the
ATIS, not the fact that the plane is drifting right? Should the
ailerons _always_ be into the wind regardless of actual aircraft
drift?

As a previous poster wrote, ATIS is only a guide. Keep in mind that the
wind is only measured at one place on the airport.

Ailerons should always be properly deflected when taxiing, taking off or
landing. What direction to apply them and how much will depend on the
direction the aircraft is moving and the direction the wind is striking
the aircraft from.

Taxiing with a tailwind is different than taxiing with a headwind or
crosswind. Your instructor should have covered that with you in your
primary training. If they didn't find a new instructor.

The best recommendation is to get some taildragger training with an
experienced taildragger instructor. THAT will really teach you about
proper control position and use in an aircraft.

How much rudder in one direction or the other can a tricycle gear
light plane take without groundlooping?

You only apply as much rudder as necessary to maintain control in the
direction you want to go.

Dan wrote:
On May 20, 6:34 am, john smith wrote:
Dan wrote:
What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?
Yoke full aft, full right aileron, left rudder as necessary to maintain
directional control, flaps up.

OK, so you're saying that based on the situation, I should trust the
ATIS, not the fact that the plane is drifting right? Should the
ailerons _always_ be into the wind regardless of actual aircraft
drift?

No, you should know from which side the wind is coming before you ever
touch down. This is very easily detected while on final. And if you
slip to accommodate the crosswind (which is the correct way in this
airplane and almost all others), then you know exactly what is up before
you ever touch down and you also know if the crosswind component is
within the control authority of the airplane.


How much rudder in one direction or the other can a tricycle gear
light plane take without groundlooping?

Quite a bit, but if you start to ground loop, then back off! One thing
my primary instructor stress was that you ALWAYS apply whatever control
input is required to get the performance you desire. You don't fly to
some preplanned target. He was not a fly by the numbers pilot and,
while I appreciate the need for that in many high performance airplanes,
his basic philosophy is sound. The conditions are what they are, not
what you planned for or what you wish they were. Fly the conditions,
not some preconceived notion of what they should be.


I am working on a checkout in this C182 after about 400 hours in
Pipers. Compared to what I am used to, the Cessna ground handling
(especially after touchdown) seems very squirrley. I've had the same
experience with the couple hours I have in 152s and 172s as well.

My Skylane wasn't squirrelly at all. Typically, it is the pilot that is
squirrelly. :-)

Matt

"Dan" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 20, 6:34 am, john smith wrote:
Dan wrote:

I am working on a checkout in this C182 after about 400 hours in
Pipers. Compared to what I am used to, the Cessna ground handling
(especially after touchdown) seems very squirrley. I've had the same
experience with the couple hours I have in 152s and 172s as well.


Pipers will always feel much more "sure footed" compared to Cessnas, it's
all in the landing gear. Walk up to both aircraft when they are untied and
try rocking the wings. Big difference. The narrow stance and spring steel
landing gear is a completely different ballgame.

The Piper will feel more agile on a nice paved runway, but it's hard to beat
the ride of a Cessna when the surface starts getting rough. Just boils down
to personal preference and where you fly most I guess.

On May 19, 11:26 pm, Dan wrote:
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan
My immediate thought was to schedule some more cross wind instruction
with a good instructor! We are not talking about much wind at all.
ATIS wind is not much of a crosswind - 20deg @ 10kts? I'd be inclined
to use less aileron and more rudder if its drifting right into the
wind. I sure as hell wouldn't drop the nosewheel to the runway and try
to force nosewheel steering with the directional control in question!
And for sure I wouldn't try to correct it with any brakes. Keep in
mind, if its light enough to drift, its still light enough on the
wheels they'll lock up and skid real easy with any brakes.
I'd be putting in lots of rudder, easing full aft elevator to keep
weight off the nose gear, and whatever aileron needed to keep wings
level. If that doesn't work, I'd be giving serious consideration to
making an immediate go around to take a 2nd look at what is happening.
Makes more sense than going off into the weeds while obviously being
behind the aircraft?
Soaring Buzzard
Infamous Worldwide Pilot/Instructor

On May 19, 11:26 pm, Dan wrote:
You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

Dan, a couple other things to consider...

Is there just you and an instructor in the plane?

How big are you and the instructor?

Full fuel, two up front, at 65 kts, your over the numbers speed is too
fast.

Try slowing to 55 - 60 kts over the numbers. Full stall stall speed is
going to be below 45 kts at the lighter weight.
Your are drifting because you are still too light on the wheels.

Does the stall horn go off as the wheels touch the ground?

Do you float down the runway between roundout and touchdown?

You should be maintaining pitch attitude as the aircraft settles by
steadily increasing backpressure on the yoke.

Even as the wheels touch, you continue to steadily pull backpressure and
hold it full aft until your in your parking spot and the engine is shut
down.

This simply illustrates why you can't trust ATIS to give you anything more
than a general sense of the conditions you might encounter. Winds change.
ATIS stations sometimes see different wind conditions than the touchdown
point, due to obstacles and wind direction.

With an ATIS reading of a 20 degree off-centerline, and 10 knots of wind, I
would fly a normal approach and make the corrections necessary to keep the
airplane pointed straight down the runway with no drift during the flare and
landing. I would not pre-suppose anything.

On the other hand, if ATIS was indicating a 90 degree crosswind at 10 knots,
and the smoke from chimneys, or waves on a nearby lake, or the windsock
confirmed that information, I would *assume* that I had a noticeable
crosswind to deal with, and would be mentally prepared for it...

BUT, I'd still wait until final approach to crank in gross corrections to
correct drift, and would apply whatever corrections were necessary in the
flare to keep the airplane aligned and kill any drift.

Bottom line.. ATIS gives you an indication of what the winds were at one
point on the airfield at a given time. The conditions at your touchdown
spot may be different.

KB

"Dan" wrote in message
ps.com...
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan

"Dan" wrote in message
ps.com...
I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the
following situation:

You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds
as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible.

You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers
at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight
right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is
aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown.

After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the
runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the
centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but
the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder
could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop.

What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation?

Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated
crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even
less effective.

--Dan


"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..
This simply illustrates why you can't trust ATIS to give you anything more
than a general sense of the conditions you might encounter. Winds change.
ATIS stations sometimes see different wind conditions than the touchdown
point, due to obstacles and wind direction.

With an ATIS reading of a 20 degree off-centerline, and 10 knots of wind,
I would fly a normal approach and make the corrections necessary to keep
the airplane pointed straight down the runway with no drift during the
flare and landing. I would not pre-suppose anything.

On the other hand, if ATIS was indicating a 90 degree crosswind at 10
knots, and the smoke from chimneys, or waves on a nearby lake, or the
windsock confirmed that information, I would *assume* that I had a
noticeable crosswind to deal with, and would be mentally prepared for
it...

BUT, I'd still wait until final approach to crank in gross corrections to
correct drift, and would apply whatever corrections were necessary in the
flare to keep the airplane aligned and kill any drift.

Bottom line.. ATIS gives you an indication of what the winds were at one
point on the airfield at a given time. The conditions at your touchdown
spot may be different.

KB

I agree with the other good responses in this thread and would only add that
the ATIS is a periodic and not real time report that could IMHE be 1 or more
hours old. I always want to confirm the ATIS by seeing the windsock and
monitoring crab and drift on downwind, base and especially on final.

Happy landings,

On Sun, 20 May 2007 20:20:10 GMT, "Private"
wrote:

I agree with the other good responses in this thread and would only add that
the ATIS is a periodic and not real time report that could IMHE be 1 or more
hours old. I always want to confirm the ATIS by seeing the windsock and
monitoring crab and drift on downwind, base and especially on final.

Along with all the good stuff that's been mentioned...

If it's a towered field, simply say "Wind Check?" into the mic while
turning final and the tower person will usually give you an instant
reading like "330 @ 9, gusting 14". A double click of the mic button
will confirm reception, no readback or callsign necessary. You
don't need a callsign or any other info when asking, simply "Wind
Check?", they'll know what it means. Both the ask and response are
very quick and don't waste much radio time.

Most of the non-towered fields I use have either an AWOS or ASOS
(maybe Belfort? G), that updates every minute, but the same caveats
apply about the location of the instrument taking the reading vs. the
runway.

In rec.aviation.student B A R R Y wrote:
Most of the non-towered fields I use have either an AWOS or ASOS
(maybe Belfort? G), that updates every minute, but the same caveats
apply about the location of the instrument taking the reading vs. the
runway.

Besides that, the wind can *change* between the time the reading is taken
and the time you flare.

I went up for some crosswind practice the other day, and the winds were
really squirrelly -- changing constantly, and very different at altitude
and on the ground.

Every few minutes, somebody would key the mike to get a wind check from
the local reporting station on the CTAF. Each time, the winds were
noticeably different, both in direction and strength. It was kind of
funny, and, while I paid attention, I didn't count on the information
still being correct while I was landing.

Each landing was different from the one before, and I had to pay attention
to the winds each moment, and react to what they were doing there, not
what they were reported to be.

Which made it a lot of fun, of course.

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

Alan Gerber wrote:
In rec.aviation.student B A R R Y wrote:
Most of the non-towered fields I use have either an AWOS or ASOS
(maybe Belfort? G), that updates every minute, but the same caveats
apply about the location of the instrument taking the reading vs. the
runway.

Besides that, the wind can *change* between the time the reading is taken
and the time you flare.

Absolutely!

Each landing was different from the one before

That's the thing about landings. G