A380 captain's pay

On May 30, 11:08 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:
Maybe they are really, really old. I got out of school in the 90's
just ahead of the internet boom. I don't ever remember there being job
stability(if you define it as being able to work for the same company
for 40 years), and hours have always been long (actually they were a
lot longer before the industrialization of software). The bottom line
is that there were *WAY* too many people calling themselves
programmers during the internet bubble. Now you have to know what you
are doing.

There hasn't been any job stability since the first oil crisis.

Even if you know what you are doing, someone in India knows what he is doing
even better than you do, and he'll work for 10% of your salary.

I have a dozen guys in India right now. Not a one only makes 10% of a
U.S. salary and some are pretty darn close to U.S. salary. Yet, we
just hired 6 people here in the states and I just found out about two
more companies in the area looking for programmers at lunch. So all
your assertions are wrong.

-Robret

On May 26, 4:35 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" said:

The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a

Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.

Personally I have seen salerys do nothing but go up in the U.S. since
early 2000's (yes, they did drop for a bit, but have more than
recovered). My friends and I have been moving around and have found 6
figures still available. However, if the last time you updated your
skills was 1995 you probably won't get much work. Things change fast,
you need to keep up with recurrent training (JEE, .NET, etc). The days
of sitting at your desk and expecting the world to sit around and wait
for you are gone.

I told my kids not to bother getting engineering degrees because in a few
years there won't be a single job left in the US.

Sounds like something from talk radio but certainly very contrary to
what I've seen. In fact the biggest issue is that other types of
engineering have been taking good programmers out of the pool. Sales
engineering is now very, very big and can't be off-shored. There is
travel involved but you usually work from home.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary writes:

Sales engineering is now very, very big and can't be off-shored.

Sales engineering is an oxymoron.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:

Sales engineering is now very, very big and can't be off-shored.

Sales engineering is an oxymoron.

Not really. I have several friends that have jobs in sales where their
engineering skills are critical.

Of course, I understand if you can't parse that sentence. It does have two
words that you seem to not relate to.

On May 30, 11:09 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:
Sales engineering is now very, very big and can't be off-shored.

Sales engineering is an oxymoron.

Apparently you aren't familiar with the technology industry so I'll
explain what the term means. Sales guys don't know much about
technology so they bring sales engineers out with them (or ahead of
them). The sales engineer talks tech with the customer and sets up
demo type of stuff. The actual sales guy just talks to the finance guy
and the C-executive (CEO, CTO, COO, etc). Sales engineers make salary
plus a piece of the sales person's commission. Since that job requires
travel in the U.S. its hard to outsource right now (its taking us
about 4 weeks to get business Visas for employees coming into the U.S.
for periods of 1 to 2 weeks of travel). Most of our sales engineers
live all over the country working out of their house and traveling
about 2 weeks per month. Again, its amazing to me how some people are
so confident in their opinion of the U.S. job market as they sit in
their parent's basement.

-Robert

On May 26, 11:04 am, Martin Hotze wrote:
On 25 May 2007 15:34:25 -0700, Robert M. Gary wrote:

-Robert, BS Computer Science, MBA, holder of 3 U.S. patents for
software

hopefully we (EU) won't introduce software patents ...
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/en/m/intro/index.html

I'm not an idealist, I'm a pragmatist. I excel in the environment I'm
in. I agree that software patents have gotten out of control in many
ways but I swim in the pool I fall in.

-Robert

Paul Tomblin writes:

The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.

That's not a problem for the employer; that is presumably the whole idea. If
the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
for now.

It's all temporary, though. It's possible to temporarily take advantage of
differences in cost of living, but the mere fact of doing so changes those
costs of living and the differences among them, and eventually you are once
again paying the same for workers everywhere. This is already happening in
places like India.

There are other problems with chasing the lowest possible wages; often this is
the one and only advantage to outsourcing abroad, and it turns out to be more
than negated by other disadvantages of this type of hiring. For example, the
turnover of employees is often several hunded percent per year, and it's
impossible to train them because they don't stay long enough to amortize the
training and it's too costly to train replacements every 90 days.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On May 26, 12:32 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Paul Tomblin writes:
The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.

That's not a problem for the employer;


How ould you know you racist fjukkwit?

You don't employ, you don't fly and you don't think.


Bertie

that is presumably the whole idea. If
the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
for now.

It's all temporary, though. It's possible to temporarily take advantage of
differences in cost of living, but the mere fact of doing so changes those
costs of living and the differences among them, and eventually you are once
again paying the same for workers everywhere. This is already happening in
places like India.

There are other problems with chasing the lowest possible wages; often this is
the one and only advantage to outsourcing abroad, and it turns out to be more
than negated by other disadvantages of this type of hiring. For example, the
turnover of employees is often several hunded percent per year, and it's
impossible to train them because they don't stay long enough to amortize the
training and it's too costly to train replacements every 90 days.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Maybe Bertie..

But, by whatever means, he is correct....

Major prob for companies "outsourcing offshore " at this time...

D

On 25 May 2007 16:56:34 -0700, Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

On May 26, 12:32 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Paul Tomblin writes:
The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.

That's not a problem for the employer;


How ould you know you racist fjukkwit?

You don't employ, you don't fly and you don't think.


Bertie

that is presumably the whole idea. If
the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
for now.

It's all temporary, though. It's possible to temporarily take advantage of
differences in cost of living, but the mere fact of doing so changes those
costs of living and the differences among them, and eventually you are once
again paying the same for workers everywhere. This is already happening in
places like India.

There are other problems with chasing the lowest possible wages; often this is
the one and only advantage to outsourcing abroad, and it turns out to be more
than negated by other disadvantages of this type of hiring. For example, the
turnover of employees is often several hunded percent per year, and it's
impossible to train them because they don't stay long enough to amortize the
training and it's too costly to train replacements every 90 days.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On May 25, 7:25 pm, Dave wrote:
Maybe Bertie..

But, by whatever means, he is correct....

Major prob for companies "outsourcing offshore " at this time...

Works both ways. I actually have a job offer in hand as we speak for a
6 figure job working near Sacramento for an Indian company. Those damn
Americans keep taking all the Indian jobs! I still haven't decided
if I'll take it but I've already begun dumping stock options in my
current company so I guess that says something.

-Robert