interesting moment yesterday on final

Ya think? ALWAYS not know?

A little hyperbole to make a play with the wording of your original
statement. But I stand by the general statement. Most VFR pilots won't
know where RIKKI is.

Here's the call in the format specified in AC 90-42F:

"Houghton County traffic, Gulfstream one two three four alpha GALEY inbound
descending through two thousand five hundred ILS approach runway three one
Houghton County."

Should a typical VFR pilot know where the Gulfstream is?

In this case, the typical VFR pilot should know that an ILS is a
straight in approach. He may not know (or remember) that it is
typically a three degree glide slope, an that at 2500 feet that would
put him at ... let me see (pulls out the calculator... half a mile over
sin of three degrees, ten miles out. Is that right? Oh yeah... that's
2500 MSL, not AGL (or above ARP). Airport's a thousand feet up, so cut
it in half. Maybe five or seven miles out?

In any case, the VFR pilot should know to look for a gulfstream on long
final. Gulfstreams are fast, so however far it is, it's closer already.

What about this one?

"Hammonton traffic, Gulfstream one two three four alpha DORTH inbound
descending through one thousand seven hundred VOR Bravo approach runway
three Hammonton."

http://www.airnav.com/airport/N81

Should a typical VFR pilot know where the Gulfstream is?

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
...

Beats the hell out of me. But somebody just called in from there,
inbound. Better watch out for him.


That call should make it easy for me.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Yes, just confirms that the FAA is as dumb in this case as they are in
defining the meaning of being "on final." This announcement has
absolutely no utility at all for a VFR pilot who has had no instrument
approach training. Heck, even an instrument at a strange field would be
clueless unless he had an approach plate handy to pull out and check.


Strawn is a fictional airport. Let's look at a real-world airport, Porter
County Airport, Valparaiso Indiana:

http://map.aeroplanner.com/mapping/c...yp=APT&txt=vpz

Here's the call in the format specified in AC 90-42F:

"Porter County traffic, Gulfstream one two three four alpha SEDLY inbound
descending through two thousand five hundred ILS approach runway two seven
Porter County."

Does this announcement have any utility at all for a VFR pilot who has had
no instrument approach training? If your answer is no, please explain.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

If T-boning occurs does it not mean the traffic flying from base to final
failed to yield the right-of-way to the traffic on final?

Does it matter?

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Does it matter?


Yes.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Does it matter?


Yes.

How?

"Jose" wrote in message
...

Since the object is to assist in being acquired visually (aka "help people
find you in the air"), understandable but not reliable trumps reliable but
not understandable. If they can get eyeballs looking in roughly the right
direction, there's a good chance of being picked up. But if all they know
is there's "somebody" out there "somewhere", that does not help.


The object is to convey position and intentions to other users, a reliable
position report that's useful to some trumps an unreliable report that's
useful to none.



At nineteen miles, "Southwest" is a big swath anyway.


The purpose was to illustrate how poor many pilots are at estimating
distance.




And that's the difference. Controllers are looking at him on a scope,
probably with markings on it, and pilots are looking for him on the High
Resolution Plexiglass Display, and mine doesn't have RIKKI marked on it.



I was speaking as a pilot there.



Talking to a controller, RIKKI inbound makes more sense. But as a general
call to pilots in the area, it does not.


So let them ask.

"Jose" wrote in message
t...

A little hyperbole to make a play with the wording of your original
statement. But I stand by the general statement. Most VFR pilots won't
know where RIKKI is.


Some will, those that don't can simply ask.



In this case, the typical VFR pilot should know that an ILS is a straight
in approach. He may not know (or remember) that it is typically a three
degree glide slope, an that at 2500 feet that would put him at ... let me
see (pulls out the calculator... half a mile over sin of three degrees,
ten miles out. Is that right? Oh yeah... that's 2500 MSL, not AGL (or
above ARP). Airport's a thousand feet up, so cut it in half. Maybe five
or seven miles out?

In any case, the VFR pilot should know to look for a gulfstream on long
final. Gulfstreams are fast, so however far it is, it's closer already.


Do typical VFR pilots fly without charts?



What about this one?

"Hammonton traffic, Gulfstream one two three four alpha DORTH inbound
descending through one thousand seven hundred VOR Bravo approach runway
three Hammonton."

http://www.airnav.com/airport/N81

Should a typical VFR pilot know where the Gulfstream is?


No. But any pilot that knows where DORTH is will know where the Gulfstream
is. A report useful to some trumps a report useful to none.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

How?


Accident analysis advances safety.

The object is to convey position and intentions to other users, a reliable
position report that's useful to some trumps an unreliable report that's
useful to none.

No, the object is not to "convey position". It is to "enable visual
aquisition". A position and intention report is of limited usefulness
if I can't see the traffic. But if I can, then the sighting trumps the
report.

Talking to a controller, RIKKI inbound makes more sense. But as a general
call to pilots in the area, it does not.
So let them ask.

On a busy 122.9, that's not easy. Also, by the time the information is
conveyed, the aircraft is elsewhere.

I was speaking as a pilot there.

As an IFR pilot who's also a controller and knows where RIKKI is.

Do typical VFR pilots fly without charts?

Yes, they typically fly without the kinds of charts that would show the
information, and further, that information is hard to find in flight
even if it's on a VFR chart. It also takes eyeballs away from the
window, which is the last thing you want in the pattern.

Well, at least the last thing I want.

But any pilot that knows where DORTH is will know where the Gulfstream
is. A report useful to some trumps a report useful to none.

A report that is useful to few might as well be useful to none.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.