Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

"Maxwell" wrote in
:


wrote in message
ups.com...
There was a thread a while ago about how not only could one stay with
the force into the seat, but actually maintain 1 G straight into the
seat through a roll. If one is flying coordinated, keeping normal to
the airplane makes sense. Those how fly aerobatics have a different
set of criteria. For what it's worth, watching the in cockpit cameras
of some moderatedly skilled pilots, like the Blue Angels, shows them
"upright" with respect to the airplane except when G forces sling
their heads around, but they do fly coordinated most of the time.

But what do they know?


That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a
different purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are
flying a knife edge, they are hardly coordinated, as with many other
maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the
aircraft is not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for
ground demonstration purposes.

Nope. the only thing you can do at 1 G is straight and level flight.

You can keep positive G around a barrel roll, but not 1 G


Bertie

Maxwell writes:

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the aircraft is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Any maneuver that involves a change in altitude will involve forces exceeding
1 G at some point.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Maxwell writes:

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the
aircraft is not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for
ground demonstration purposes.

Any maneuver that involves a change in altitude will involve forces
exceeding 1 G at some point.


Nope, wrong again fjukktard.


Bertie

On 2007-06-10 22:41:49 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


wrote in message
ups.com...
There was a thread a while ago about how not only could one stay with
the force into the seat, but actually maintain 1 G straight into the
seat through a roll. If one is flying coordinated, keeping normal to
the airplane makes sense. Those how fly aerobatics have a different
set of criteria. For what it's worth, watching the in cockpit cameras
of some moderatedly skilled pilots, like the Blue Angels, shows them
"upright" with respect to the airplane except when G forces sling
their heads around, but they do fly coordinated most of the time.

But what do they know?


That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a different
purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are flying a knife edge,
they are hardly coordinated, as with many other maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the aircraft is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Actually, when the Blues or anyone else is in knife edge, they are
indeed in coordinated flight. You hold the aircraft in knife edge with
top rudder and forward neutral stick; this control pressure combination
has to be perfectly coordinated to maintain knife edge.
You are confusing coordinated with meaning the control pressures must
be complementary which is a common mistake often made.
The first lesson we teach in aerobatics is that "coordinated" has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the controls not being crossed.
Actually, any good flight instructor will teach this to a new primary
student during the first hour of dual :-)
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061121444816807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-10 22:41:49 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a different
purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are flying a knife
edge,
they are hardly coordinated, as with many other maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the aircraft
is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Actually, when the Blues or anyone else is in knife edge, they are indeed
in coordinated flight. You hold the aircraft in knife edge with top rudder
and forward neutral stick; this control pressure combination has to be
perfectly coordinated to maintain knife edge.
You are confusing coordinated with meaning the control pressures must be
complementary which is a common mistake often made.
The first lesson we teach in aerobatics is that "coordinated" has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the controls not being crossed.
Actually, any good flight instructor will teach this to a new primary
student during the first hour of dual :-)
Dudley Henriques


Then define coordinated.

"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061121444816807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-10 22:41:49 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a
different purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are
flying a knife edge,
they are hardly coordinated, as with many other maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the
aircraft is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Actually, when the Blues or anyone else is in knife edge, they are
indeed in coordinated flight. You hold the aircraft in knife edge
with top rudder and forward neutral stick; this control pressure
combination has to be perfectly coordinated to maintain knife edge.
You are confusing coordinated with meaning the control pressures must
be complementary which is a common mistake often made.
The first lesson we teach in aerobatics is that "coordinated" has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the controls not being
crossed. Actually, any good flight instructor will teach this to a
new primary student during the first hour of dual :-)
Dudley Henriques


Then define coordinated.


All controls in the appropriate postion for the desired flight path and
attitude.


Bertie

On 2007-06-11 23:13:58 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061121444816807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-10 22:41:49 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a different
purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are flying a knife
edge,
they are hardly coordinated, as with many other maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the aircraft
is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Actually, when the Blues or anyone else is in knife edge, they are indeed
in coordinated flight. You hold the aircraft in knife edge with top rudder
and forward neutral stick; this control pressure combination has to be
perfectly coordinated to maintain knife edge.
You are confusing coordinated with meaning the control pressures must be
complementary which is a common mistake often made.
The first lesson we teach in aerobatics is that "coordinated" has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the controls not being crossed.
Actually, any good flight instructor will teach this to a new primary
student during the first hour of dual :-)
Dudley Henriques


Then define coordinated.

Surely.
Coordinated as that applies to control pressures while in flight
defines ANY application of controls in ANY DIRECTION where the pressure
applied to each individual control achieves a specific desired
resulting change in the flight path of the aircraft .
A non slipping or skidding ball centered turn entry or exit is a
coordinated control movement. In this case the control pressures
applied are in the same direction and uncrossed.
Conversely, a deliberate slip or a slow roll is also a coordinated
control movement resulting in a specific change and effect in the
flight path of the aircraft. In this case the controls are not applied
in the same direction and are said to be crossed.
Again, crossed controls does NOT mean uncoordinated.
Dudley Henriques

Dudley,

I think you are mixing up the terms 'coordinated control pressures' and
'coordinated flight'. I have never seen a definition of coordinated flight
(in the context that we are discussing here - 'head orientation in _turns_'
or barrel rolls for that matter) that would mean 'coordinated control
pressures' as you define it.

From the FAA handbook of aeronautical knowledge:

"True, an airplane may be banked to 90° but not in a coordinated

turn; an airplane which can be held in a 90°

banked slipping turn is capable of straight knifeedged

flight."

An aircraft doing a straight line knife edge is not in coordinated flight.
It may even be argued if the term 'coordinated flight' is applicable for
non-turning flight but you can always interpret straight-line flight as a
turn of infinite diameter. In any case, the nose of the airplane is not
aligned with it's flightpath, the ball is not centered, the plane is not in
coordinated flight during a knife edge.

http://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/l...ro+Slidesli p

"Sideslip is the angle with which the relative wind meets the longitudinal
axis of the airplane. In all-engine flight with symmetrical power, zero
sideslip occurs with the ball of the slip-skid indicator centered. Pilots
know this concept as "coordinated flight." "

The conditions characterizing 'coordinated flight' mentioned in the text
above clearly do not apply to knife-edge flight: Ball not centered, the
relative wind is not meeting the longitudinal axis of the a/c at 0 deg.

Sierk

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061123362943658-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 23:13:58 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061121444816807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-10 22:41:49 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a
different
purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are flying a knife
edge,
they are hardly coordinated, as with many other maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the
aircraft
is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Actually, when the Blues or anyone else is in knife edge, they are
indeed
in coordinated flight. You hold the aircraft in knife edge with top
rudder
and forward neutral stick; this control pressure combination has to be
perfectly coordinated to maintain knife edge.
You are confusing coordinated with meaning the control pressures must be
complementary which is a common mistake often made.
The first lesson we teach in aerobatics is that "coordinated" has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the controls not being crossed.
Actually, any good flight instructor will teach this to a new primary
student during the first hour of dual :-)
Dudley Henriques


Then define coordinated.

Surely.
Coordinated as that applies to control pressures while in flight defines
ANY application of controls in ANY DIRECTION where the pressure applied to
each individual control achieves a specific desired resulting change in
the flight path of the aircraft .
A non slipping or skidding ball centered turn entry or exit is a
coordinated control movement. In this case the control pressures applied
are in the same direction and uncrossed.
Conversely, a deliberate slip or a slow roll is also a coordinated control
movement resulting in a specific change and effect in the flight path of
the aircraft. In this case the controls are not applied in the same
direction and are said to be crossed.
Again, crossed controls does NOT mean uncoordinated.
Dudley Henriques

On 2007-06-12 08:40:42 -0400, "Sierk Melzer" said:

Dudley,

I think you are mixing up the terms 'coordinated control pressures' and
'coordinated flight'. I have never seen a definition of coordinated flight
(in the context that we are discussing here - 'head orientation in _turns_'
or barrel rolls for that matter) that would mean 'coordinated control
pressures' as you define it.

From the FAA handbook of aeronautical knowledge:

"True, an airplane may be banked to 90° but not in a coordinated

turn; an airplane which can be held in a 90°

banked slipping turn is capable of straight knifeedged

flight."

An aircraft doing a straight line knife edge is not in coordinated flight.
It may even be argued if the term 'coordinated flight' is applicable for
non-turning flight but you can always interpret straight-line flight as a
turn of infinite diameter. In any case, the nose of the airplane is not
aligned with it's flightpath, the ball is not centered, the plane is not in
coordinated flight during a knife edge.

http://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/l...ro+Slidesli p

"Sideslip

is the angle with which the relative wind meets the longitudinal
axis of the airplane. In all-engine flight with symmetrical power, zero
sideslip occurs with the ball of the slip-skid indicator centered. Pilots
know this concept as "coordinated flight." "

The conditions characterizing 'coordinated flight' mentioned in the text
above clearly do not apply to knife-edge flight: Ball not centered, the
relative wind is not meeting the longitudinal axis of the a/c at 0 deg.

Sierk


You could indeed stretch a point on this and you would be absolutely correct.
Pilots (and especially aerobatic instructors like myself) have a strong
tendency to teach coordinated control pressure to produce desired
result rather than any coined definition of coordinated flight. At our
stage of performance, the term "coordinated" must indeed be redefined
to include the extended envelope of the aircraft in which we operate.
For example, in going to knife edge, if the control pressures are not
perfectly timed and applied with the exact "coordinnated" pressure
necessary to change the aircraft's flight path from where it is to
where it must be to produce knife edge, the maneuver is blown. This is
coordinated movement producing the desired result. To us, this is
coordinated flight and is as normal a control application as a
coordinated turn entry with the ball centered might be to a pilot
flying within the normal definition for "coordinated".
I believe you are correct in defining coordinated flight as you are and
have no problem with that.
In turn, you should consider that there are "extended levels" in flying
an airplane where pilots must redefine the basic definitions for
coordinated flight.
Dudley Henriques