Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

"Mxsmanic" wrote ...

In a coordinated turn, motorcycles move in two dimensions. They lean into
turns to keep the acceleration vector aligned with the center of gravity
and
the plane of the rear wheel.

Yep, you're right, they're identical.

Pretty much, in this context.

Disagree.

First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a turn. They
are, however, bound to follow the road surface. Which may be flat.. or then
not.

Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs. the
pilot is looking at.

Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike on the
road, in order to spot any bumps. Or maybe he just wants to optimize his
turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly. In
either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight perception
improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road.

The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's
interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the instruments.
That's a different case and it's not self-evident that tilting the head
parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's turn performance. On the
contrary, especially if the pilot uses the VSI and altimeter to maintain
altitude, it's probably easier to read them with the eyes level relative to
the instrument panel.

Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision can
better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if he keeps
his head still. When the airplane banks, part of his stereoscopic ability
is transferred to the vertical direction, which may improve his sensing of
climb/descent changes. Whereas the bike driver has no need to be able to
sense movement in the vertical plane, as he is bound to the road surface
anyway.

Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his seat.
Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn.

I'm not aware of scientific proof of the above, but neither of the reverse.
So until the opposite is credibly shown, I'll contend that a motorcycle is
different from an airplane.

Snowbird writes:

First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a turn.

Neither do aircraft.

Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs. the
pilot is looking at.

The driver of any vehicle needs to look where the vehicle is going.

Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike on the
road, in order to spot any bumps.

No, that results in target fixation, and accidents.

Or maybe he just wants to optimize his
turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly. In
either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight perception
improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road.

Motorcycle riders look where they want to go, just like pilots.

The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's
interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the instruments.
That's a different case and it's not self-evident that tilting the head
parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's turn performance. On the
contrary, especially if the pilot uses the VSI and altimeter to maintain
altitude, it's probably easier to read them with the eyes level relative to
the instrument panel.

This is a VFR pilot?

Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision can
better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if he keeps
his head still.

Stereoscopic vision ceases to be a factor beyond around 10 metres, so it is
never important in the air--which is why full-motion simulators use
collimation to make everything seem infinitely far away, without bothering to
simulate 3D.

Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his seat.
Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn.

I was taught not to lean in any direction that isn't aligned with the bike.

I'm not aware of scientific proof of the above, but neither of the reverse.
So until the opposite is credibly shown, I'll contend that a motorcycle is
different from an airplane.

Different in many ways, but very much the same in turns.

Mxsmanic wrote in
news
Snowbird writes:

First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a
turn.

Neither do aircraft.

Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs.
the pilot is looking at.

The driver of any vehicle needs to look where the vehicle is going.

Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike
on the road, in order to spot any bumps.

No, that results in target fixation, and accidents.

Or maybe he just wants to optimize his
turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly.
In either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight
perception improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road.

Motorcycle riders look where they want to go, just like pilots.

The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's
interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the
instruments. That's a different case and it's not self-evident that
tilting the head parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's
turn performance. On the contrary, especially if the pilot uses the
VSI and altimeter to maintain altitude, it's probably easier to read
them with the eyes level relative to the instrument panel.

This is a VFR pilot?

Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision
can better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if
he keeps his head still.

Stereoscopic vision ceases to be a factor beyond around 10 metres, so
it is never important in the air--which is why full-motion simulators
use collimation to make everything seem infinitely far away, without
bothering to simulate 3D.

Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his
seat. Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn.

I was taught not to lean in any direction that isn't aligned with the
bike.

That's because your instructor was stuck with an idiot

We frequently use little zen things like that to keep the student from
doing something stupid. Mostly out of desperation when al else fails.



Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
news
Snowbird writes:

First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a
turn.

Neither do aircraft.

Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs.
the pilot is looking at.

The driver of any vehicle needs to look where the vehicle is going.

Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike
on the road, in order to spot any bumps.

No, that results in target fixation, and accidents.

Or maybe he just wants to optimize his
turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly.
In either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight
perception improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road.

Motorcycle riders look where they want to go, just like pilots.

The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's
interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the
instruments. That's a different case and it's not self-evident that
tilting the head parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's
turn performance. On the contrary, especially if the pilot uses the
VSI and altimeter to maintain altitude, it's probably easier to read
them with the eyes level relative to the instrument panel.

This is a VFR pilot?

Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision
can better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if
he keeps his head still.

Stereoscopic vision ceases to be a factor beyond around 10 metres, so
it is never important in the air--which is why full-motion simulators
use collimation to make everything seem infinitely far away, without
bothering to simulate 3D.

Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his
seat. Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn.

I was taught not to lean in any direction that isn't aligned with the
bike.

I'm not aware of scientific proof of the above, but neither of the
reverse. So until the opposite is credibly shown, I'll contend that a
motorcycle is different from an airplane.

Different in many ways, but very much the same in turns.


You're an idiot.

Talking to another idiot.

Bertie

"Mxsmanic" wrote ....
Snowbird writes:

First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a turn.

Neither do aircraft.

That was never the issue. An aircraft can control its altitude in a turn,
but a motorcycle must follow any ups and downs in the road.


Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs. the
pilot is looking at.

The driver of any vehicle needs to look where the vehicle is going.

But the motorcycle rider does not need to, and indeed can not, have control
in the vertical dimension. Consequently he has no need to look at visual
cues affecting the vertical dimension. The pilot, on the contrary, has.


Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike on
the
road, in order to spot any bumps.

No, that results in target fixation, and accidents.

Failure to notice bumps, potholes, or sand on the intended track causes
accidents.


Or maybe he just wants to optimize his
turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly. In
either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight perception
improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road.

Motorcycle riders look where they want to go, just like pilots.


Ever seen a motorcyclist turning onto a compass course?

The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's
interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the
instruments.
That's a different case and it's not self-evident that tilting the head
parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's turn performance. On
the
contrary, especially if the pilot uses the VSI and altimeter to maintain
altitude, it's probably easier to read them with the eyes level relative
to
the instrument panel.

This is a VFR pilot?


This is not about simulator games.

Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision can
better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if he keeps
his head still.

Stereoscopic vision ceases to be a factor beyond around 10 metres, so it
is
never important in the air--which is why full-motion simulators use
collimation to make everything seem infinitely far away, without bothering
to
simulate 3D.


The nose of the airplane is hardly 10 metres away.

Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his seat.
Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn.

I was taught not to lean in any direction that isn't aligned with the
bike.


So what?

I'm not aware of scientific proof of the above, but neither of the
reverse.
So until the opposite is credibly shown, I'll contend that a motorcycle
is
different from an airplane.

Different in many ways, but very much the same in turns.

You're entitled to your opinion, even if it sucks. Both need about the same
bank angle, but the similarity ends there.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

writes:

Let's see, airplanes free to move in 3 axis, orientation and velocity
determined by gravity, engine thrust, and aerodynamic forces on the
control surfaces.

In a coordinated turn, aircraft move in two dimensions,

Wrong again asshole.

Bertie