Lazy Eight's

"Dick" wrote in message
news:byvfi.3176$cV.223@trnddc04...
After taking some rigorous Unusual Attitudes Training, now I can't do a
smooth Lazy Eight to save my soul G (or comfort my wife).

One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a
blind canyon 180* turn within a wingspan. Entry at 30* pitch & 30* bank
proceeding to 60* pitch & 60* bank at 90* point to entry. Then at 0 mph,
the nose falls without rudder assist and ball is too the side.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30* P&B
at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over stall using proper rudder
control and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and still
too fast.....

Advice please. Thanks, Dick

What you're describing we used to call a split "S" entry. Roll over and pull
out - if you have elevation. Used to do it in an old Champ regularly. - no
negative g's. Not recommended for planes not certified, but if dying is the
alternative?

Who the hell's dumb enough to fly up a blind canyon below the rim?

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:19:42 -0400, "birdog" wrote in
:

Who the hell's dumb enough to fly up a blind canyon below the rim?

One day in 2002 two owners flew their "forked-tailed doctor killers"
up a blind canyon in southern California:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...02FA211&rpt=fa
On June 30, 2002, about 1059 Pacific daylight time, a Beech V-35A,
N156U, collided with mountainous terrain while maneuvering in a
canyon near Ojai, California. The pilot/owner was operating the
airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The commercial
pilot, one pilot rated passenger, and another passenger sustained
fatal injuries; the airplane was destroyed. The personal
cross-country flight departed Van Nuys (VNY), California, about
1030, en route to Oceano (L52), California. Visual meteorological
conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed. The
primary wreckage was at 34 degrees 33.503 minutes north latitude
and 119 degrees 28.139 minutes west longitude.

A witness reported that the pilot was one of a group that
routinely gathered on weekends for local flights. They all met at
Van Nuys about 0930 for a preflight briefing. The accident pilot
was to be the lead, and he obtained a weather brief. He then
briefed the group on weather, communications, route, altitudes,
alternates, and safety issues.

The flight consisted of a group of eight airplanes. The airplanes
departed as three groups in formation. Two groups consisted of
three airplanes, and a third group consisted of just two
airplanes. The group formed up at 4,500 feet.

The witness reported that after flying around the area for about
25 minutes, the lead instructed everyone to separate and follow in
trail. The lead and the number two airplane stayed in formation
with the second airplane on the right wing. The rest of the
airplanes followed in loose trail as the leader maneuvered in a
serpentine manner. The flight was now over the Ojai area and
proceeded on a northerly heading. Members of the group reported
that they had flown in this area before.

Witnesses reported that the first two airplanes separated from the
rest of the group. They descended into a canyon to an estimated
500 to 1,000 feet above ground level (agl). The other airplanes
followed about 500 feet behind the airplane that they were
following. The number three pilot estimated that he was about 200
feet above the leader's altitude and number two was between
them. Number three was flying at 120 knots and heard "90." He
noticed that number two was getting closer to the leader, and he
was closing on number two.

As the airplanes proceeded toward the end of the canyon, number
three noticed that the terrain was rising, and the canyon was
getting narrow. Due to his concern about terrain clearance, he
decided to exit the formation. He asked the leader if he was going
to make it, but he had his microphone keyed and did not hear a
response. Other pilots heard someone say, "I don't think so."

A few seconds later, number three initiated a hard pull up to the
left and began to climb. He completed about 15 degrees of turn and
saw the lead airplane collide with trees and terrain at his
2-o'clock position. The number two airplane was a little to the
right of the lead when it also collided with the terrain. The lead
airplane caught fire and then the second airplane caught fire.
The second airplane was N576Q, a Beech S35; see NTSB accident
report LAX02FA212.

Number three estimated that the ridgeline elevation was 6,000
feet, and he cleared the ridgeline by 50 feet. He noted an outside
air temperature of 87 degrees Fahrenheit. He immediately notified
authorities in Santa Barbara, California, and entered an orbit at
8,000 feet. Within 7 to 8 minutes a helicopter arrived and dropped
water on the fire. About 20 minutes later several aircraft arrived
on scene and number 3 departed the area.


While I wouldn't characterize him as dumb, there's the tragic tale of
stunt pilot Frank Tallman:

Frank Tallman, (EAA 75) returning from a flight to northern
California scouting movie locations, was killed when his Piper
Aztec hit near the top of the Santa Ana Mountains east of El Toro
Marine air base, southeast of Los Angeles.


Died April 16, 1978 Frank Gifford Tallman III
The coroner's report said that he died of a heart attack in
flight.

04/15/78 TRABUCO CANYON,CA N5641Y PIPER PA-23 FATAL (1)
33 40N 117 28W UNKNOWN AZTEC N5641Y WHITE W/YELLOW TRIM


N-Number: 5641Y
Aircraft Make: Piper
Aircraft Model: PA-23-250
Serial Number: 27-2755
Year Manufactured: 1965
Aircraft Type: Land
Engine Make: Lycoming
Engine Model: TI0-540 SER
Horsepower: 310
Airworthiness Class: Standard
Seats: 6
Type of Ownership: Corporation
Owner Name: Sale Reported
Street: 11962 S Prairie Ave
City: Hawthorne, CA 90250
FAA Region: Western-Pacific
Country: US
Last Activity Date: 16-Aug-1980


Frank Tallman succumbed as chronicled in NTSB report LAX78FA043.
Below are some newspaper articles which appeared subsequent to Mr.
Tallman's death:

Tallman had over 21,000 flying hours by the time of his death. HE
HAD PILOTED MORE THAN 500 DIFFERENT KINDS OF POWERED, FIXED-WING,
AIRCRAFT, HELICOPTERS, GLIDERS, AND BALLOONS.

"He had just refueled in Santa Monica, there are no,indications of
any pre-impact mechanical malfunctions, he had had plenty of
sleep, he was not taking any medicine, and the autopsy and
toxicological tests all came up negative."

Tallman had departed San Francisco earlier in the day, flown to
the Salinas VOR south of the Bay Area and then followed the coast
to Santa Monica, flying most of the time at less than 1,000 feet.

A flight between Santa Monica and Phoenix:

Tallman dropped off his sole passenger at Santa Monica and
departed for the Phoenix area. Tallman told his passenger he
would follow the coast south to San Diego and then fly eastward to
his destination.

Approximately 20 minutes after departing Santa Monica, Tallman's
light twin flew into the side of a 3,500-foot mountain ridge that
had an east/west orientation [located 16 miles from his home field
SNA]. The aircraft impacted on a heading of 130' with its wings
level and in a slightly nose-down attitude. Ground contact
occurred about 3,100 feet msl, straight-on and with no indications
that the pilot was incapacitated, that the aircraft was
mechanically impaired or that evasive maneuvering had occurred
prior to the time the Aztec struck the trees that covered the
ridge. According to observers near the accident site, the local
visibility was practically nil in heavy rain showers and the
ceiling was approximately 800 to 1,000 feet agl. [The weather was
unrealistically severe that evening including thunder
storms.]
---
Sheriff's deputies said the Piper Aztec aircraft went down during
the night and was sighted Sunday morning in rugged terrain 50
yards from' the top of a 3,500-foot-high ridge line in the
Cleveland National Forest. Tallman had been flying alone.

A helicopter airdropped sheriff's dep. Jim Ohr at the scene, one
mile from the entrance to Holy Jim Canyon, a few hours later.

Ohr said there was massive damage to the right side and front of
the plane, "possibly like he was making a left turn in the last
minute. It looked like it plowed into the cliff."

Tallman was found in the cockpit, with the seat belt On. The
emergency locator transmitter was still sending out signals.

Ohr said there was considerable turbulence over the mountain.
[OC Sheriff: 714 647000, 550 N. Flower St. Santa Ana, CA 92703]
---
Keith McGuire, a National Transportation Safety
Board investigator assigned to the Oakland office

Keith McGuire [ISASI '99 TECHNICAL COMMITTE,ALASKA REGIONAL
CHAPTER; NTSB Northwest Region, Rm. 201, 19518 Pacific Hwy. S.,
Seattle, WA 98188 Regional Director], a National Transportation
Safety Board investigator assigned to the Oakland office,said:

Reconstructing Tallman's last days, McGuire said the flier
had left Santa Monica Airport Friday, April 14, with a client,
British film maker Michael Wilson. The two flew along the
Sierra Nevada Mountains looking for film locations, then
landed in San Francisco where they spent the night.

McGuire said both men retired relatively early. They left
San Francisco Saturday and flew back to Santa Monica,
arriving there at 2:32 p.m.

Tallman dropped Wilson off and told him that he was
going to fly to Phoenix on personal business before returning to
Orange County. After refueling, he left Santa Monica
at 2:54 p.m. the time of his List radio contact

Twenty minutes later, at 3:14 p.m., his plane hit the 3,100-foot
mark of the 3,500-foot ridge just four miles south of Santiago
Peak.

Tallman was killed just two days before his 59th birthday.
When search teams arrived at the brush-covered crash site,
they found his body still strapped into the seat of his plane.
He had died instantly.

On Jun 24, 4:02 pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:19:42 -0400, "birdog" wrote in
:

Who the hell's dumb enough to fly up a blind canyon below the rim?


According to observers near the accident site, the local
visibility was practically nil in heavy rain showers and the
ceiling was approximately 800 to 1,000 feet agl. [The weather was
unrealistically severe that evening including thunder
storms.]

'Unrealistically severe' - was this a simulated flight?

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:29:17 -0700,
wrote in om:

On Jun 24, 4:02 pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:19:42 -0400, "birdog" wrote in
:

Who the hell's dumb enough to fly up a blind canyon below the rim?


According to observers near the accident site, the local
visibility was practically nil in heavy rain showers and the
ceiling was approximately 800 to 1,000 feet agl. [The weather was
unrealistically severe that evening including thunder
storms.]

'Unrealistically severe' - was this a simulated flight?

From what I remember, eye witnesses reported that they had to pull
over to the side of the road/freeway because the rain was so heavy
they couldn't proceed safely. Apparently the weather was worse than
anyone who experienced it could remember it having been in the past at
that location. It was so bad, that the medical examiner indicated
that Mr. Tallman suffered a heart attack before impact.

A very tragic end for a super guy.

On 2007-06-24 16:16:35 -0700, Larry Dighera said:

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:29:17 -0700,
wrote in om:

On Jun 24, 4:02 pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:19:42 -0400, "birdog" wrote in
:

Who the hell's dumb enough to fly up a blind canyon below the rim?


According to observers near the accident site, the local
visibility was practically nil in heavy rain showers and the
ceiling was approximately 800 to 1,000 feet agl. [The weather was
unrealistically severe that evening including thunder
storms.]

'Unrealistically severe' - was this a simulated flight?

From what I remember, eye witnesses reported that they had to pull
over to the side of the road/freeway because the rain was so heavy
they couldn't proceed safely. Apparently the weather was worse than
anyone who experienced it could remember it having been in the past at
that location. It was so bad, that the medical examiner indicated
that Mr. Tallman suffered a heart attack before impact.

A very tragic end for a super guy.

I have seen storms like that near Flagstaff.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:19:42 -0400, "birdog" wrote:

Who the hell's dumb enough to fly up a blind canyon below the rim?

Corey Lidle?

-Dana
--
--
If replying by email, please make the obvious changes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you glue a piece of toast, butter side up, to your cat's back, and drop it from a high place, which way will it land?

UND stuff he http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Unive...LazyEights.m4v


"Dick" wrote in message news:byvfi.3176$cV.223@trnddc04...
After taking some rigorous Unusual Attitudes Training, now I can't do a smooth Lazy Eight to save my soul G (or
comfort my wife).

One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a blind canyon 180* turn within a wingspan. Entry
at 30* pitch & 30* bank proceeding to 60* pitch & 60* bank at 90* point to entry. Then at 0 mph, the nose falls
without rudder assist and ball is too the side.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30* P&B at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over
stall using proper rudder control and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then
at the 90* point and still too fast.....

Advice please. Thanks, Dick

On Jun 24, 7:51 am, "Dick" wrote:
After taking some rigorous Unusual Attitudes Training, now I can't do a
smooth Lazy Eight to save my soul G (or comfort my wife).

One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a blind
canyon 180* turn within a wingspan. Entry at 30* pitch & 30* bank proceeding
to 60* pitch & 60* bank at 90* point to entry. Then at 0 mph, the nose falls
without rudder assist and ball is too the side.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30* P&B
at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over stall using proper rudder control
and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and still too
fast.....

Advice please. Thanks, Dick

Why would anyone want to do a lazy-8 once they've completed their
commercial? I can understand doing an "8's on" (as a matter of fact, I
do them all the time), or a chandelle, but a lazy-8?

buttman wrote:


Why would anyone want to do a lazy-8 once they've completed their
commercial? I can understand doing an "8's on" (as a matter of fact, I
do them all the time), or a chandelle, but a lazy-8?


Because, if done correctly, they teach coordination and control. If
done correctly, they require more skill than a Chandelle, IMHO. And if
you want to have more fun and develop more skill, you can start out with
the standard 30 deg bank, then increase it to 45 deg, 60 deg, etc, until
you are doing wing overs on each turn (usual caveats, etc).

On Jun 24, 1:46 pm, buttman wrote:
On Jun 24, 7:51 am, "Dick" wrote:





After taking some rigorous Unusual Attitudes Training, now I can't do a
smooth Lazy Eight to save my soul G (or comfort my wife).

One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a blind
canyon 180* turn within a wingspan. Entry at 30* pitch & 30* bank proceeding
to 60* pitch & 60* bank at 90* point to entry. Then at 0 mph, the nose falls
without rudder assist and ball is too the side.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30* P&B
at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over stall using proper rudder control
and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and still too
fast.....

Advice please. Thanks, Dick

Why would anyone want to do a lazy-8 once they've completed their
commercial? I can understand doing an "8's on" (as a matter of fact, I
do them all the time), or a chandelle, but a lazy-8?- Hide quoted text -


Lazy 8 is one of the few maneuvers that is challenging, yet graceful
and relaxing. You can climb to a high altitude into smooth air, sit
back, take a deep breath. The maneuver is very demanding yet it won't
make you sweat or grip the yoke tight. Almost every time I fly solo
(which is not too often because most of my flights are with pax or
students), I do a few. But I don't do 8's-on pylons because I
consider bouncing at a few hundred feet while looking out for
obstacles and traffic is too much sweaty work.