Lazy Eight's

One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a blind
canyon 180* turn within a wingspan.

Impossible.

vince norris

after the instructor said it would be within a wingspan, it sure seemed that
way to this old man G.

"vincent norris" wrote in message
...
One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a
blind canyon 180* turn within a wingspan.

Impossible.

vince norris

Dick wrote:
after the instructor said it would be within a wingspan, it sure seemed that
way to this old man G.


I recall, now, an airplane that can change heading by 180 degrees within
one wingspan.

It is a DC-3 that is mounted on a pedestal at Whitehorse, Yukon,
airport. It is on a support that permits it to windcock, and it does,
even in a slight breeze.

And it needs no more space that one wingspan to do a 180 or even a 360!

vince norris

Turns is a wingspan? We could do a Bill Clinton here, depends on what
you mean by 'wingspan'. Or whose wingspan.

Just how tight a non-aerobatic turn can you do in a training airplane
like a 152?


On Jun 26, 12:21 am, vincent norris wrote:
Dick wrote:
after the instructor said it would be within a wingspan, it sure seemed that
way to this old man G.

I recall, now, an airplane that can change heading by 180 degrees within
one wingspan.

It is a DC-3 that is mounted on a pedestal at Whitehorse, Yukon,
airport. It is on a support that permits it to windcock, and it does,
even in a slight breeze.

And it needs no more space that one wingspan to do a 180 or even a 360!

vince norris

Opps -- asked a question that I could have checked on myself.

looks like a 60 degree bank and 60 MPH would result in a turn diameter
a bit under 300 feet (no wind etc)

the plane was a French CAP 10 acrobatic plane
wrote in message
oups.com...
Turns is a wingspan? We could do a Bill Clinton here, depends on what
you mean by 'wingspan'. Or whose wingspan.

Just how tight a non-aerobatic turn can you do in a training airplane
like a 152?


On Jun 26, 12:21 am, vincent norris wrote:
Dick wrote:
after the instructor said it would be within a wingspan, it sure seemed
that
way to this old man G.

I recall, now, an airplane that can change heading by 180 degrees within
one wingspan.

It is a DC-3 that is mounted on a pedestal at Whitehorse, Yukon,
airport. It is on a support that permits it to windcock, and it does,
even in a slight breeze.

And it needs no more space that one wingspan to do a 180 or even a 360!

vince norris

tbaker27705 wrote

Just how tight a non-aerobatic turn can you do in a training airplane
like a 152?

If it were my butt about to run into a cumulogranite, it would matter not,
what the rating of the aircraft was.
--
Jim in NC

On 2007-06-24 10:51:51 -0400, "Dick" said:

After taking some rigorous Unusual Attitudes Training, now I can't do a
smooth Lazy Eight to save my soul G (or comfort my wife).

One item the course taught me was a Modified Wingover which allowed a blind
canyon 180* turn within a wingspan.

Only way to do this would be a Hammerhead, and a Hammerhead done
perfectly as well :-)





Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and still too
fast.....

Advice please. Thanks, Dick

Hi Dick;

I won't get into the mechanics on Lazy 8's as there are literally
hundreds of competent sources available and I'm sure you have already
read them.
Procedure is only part of the equation when it comes to doing a good Lazy 8.
Contrary to what some might think, doing a good Lazy 8 within specific
parameters is actually not as easy as it might seem. In fact, as an
aerobatic instructor, I'll have even a competent acro pilot demonstrate
a good Lazy 8 to me before moving on into the "good stuff" :-)
The key to doing good Lazy 8's is control coordination and feel. You
are dealing directly with an ever changing dynamic in a Lazy 8. This
means that your aircraft's altitude, attitude, airspeed, and heading
are all in constant flux as you execute the maneuver.
There's a lot more involved than simply being at the right point in
space at the right time, altitude, and angle of bank.
All these things are changing as far as control response goes as the
maneuver progresses. As airspeed decreases, you will need to alter the
angle of bank to compensate. Same for increasing airspeed. All the
while this is going on, you have to be watching your heading change
along the arc of the maneuver.
What I do with acro students having trouble with Lazy 8's is to have
them concentrate on doing a good wingover first. This way, they can
concentrate on the 90 degree reference point, the 45 degree point and
the 135 degree point on one side only at a time.
When you can consistantly perform good wingovers to one side, then the
other, you should then put them together and do Lazy 8's.
Basically, you are dealing with pitch and bank and what you have to do
with varying control pressures with BOTH these parameters to achieve
the desired result.
Try practicing a single wingover to one side. Let the airplane tell you
what you are doing wrong. In aerobatics, (yes, I know the definition as
relates to Lazy 8's :-) the airplane will teach you every time you try
to perform a maneuver what you are doing wrong. What YOU have to do is
WATCH for the difference between what you wanted the airplane to do and
what it actually did do based on the control input you provided.
In a Lazy 8, if you are early or late at a reference point, you are
either early or late in pitch or roll. Ask yourself what you have to
change in control input; then try it again with that change.
Don't overtask on reference points. Learn where you lose and regain
your visual cues vs your reference points vs your high or low wing and
compensate for that.
Basically what you are looking for is smooth fluid unhurried continious
control pressures throughout a Lazy 8.
As I said, contrary to what some might say, a pilot who can perform a
good Lazy 8 is a pilot who has taken the time to become proficient in
the basics, and in all of flying, there is nothing more desirable in a
pilot then being someone who can execute based on a well rounded
comprehension of the basics.
Dudley Henriques

On 2007-06-24 19:35:43 -0700, Dudley Henriques said:
What I do with acro students having trouble with Lazy 8's is to have
them concentrate on doing a good wingover first. This way, they can
concentrate on the 90 degree reference point, the 45 degree point and
the 135 degree point on one side only at a time.
When you can consistantly perform good wingovers to one side, then the
other, you should then put them together and do Lazy 8's.
Basically, you are dealing with pitch and bank and what you have to do
with varying control pressures with BOTH these parameters to achieve
the desired result.

Dudley, I am not sure I understand this as a teaching technique for a
Lazy Eight. You get examiners who complain that people doing Lazy
Eights are actually doing Wingovers instead of Lazy Eights. You see
comments like this, for example, in Ken Medley's article on the AOPA
web site:

"Examiners complain that many applicants actually do wingovers when
they think they are doing lazy eights. A wingover is a good, easy
aerobatic maneuver, but it isn't a lazy eight.
In lazy eights you fly the airplane throughout. In wingovers, you slip
the airplane during the turnaround. For lazy eights, fly the airplane
throughout the turns - no slipping - and be sure to allow for torque."
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

C J Campbell wrote:
In wingovers, you slip
the airplane during the turnaround. For lazy eights, fly the airplane
throughout the turns - no slipping - and be sure to allow for torque."

You are saying that a wingover is not coordinated, but it is.