Hidden costs of ethenol

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message ...


And in North america, virtually everything you eat, and much of what
you buy otherwise, has corn in it in one form or an other. Corn
starch, corn syrup etc. Using corn to make ethanol for fuel drives the
price of everything else made with corn up, as well as everything that
is an option to use in place of corn. A cousin works for a large
multinational cookie manufacturer. Over the last several months, the
ingredient costs have gone up 30%, mostly corn sweetener pricing, but
a lot of other stuff too, attributed to CORN PRICING.



And don't forget OIL makes the fertilizer in most cases. The 'food chain' in the USA is pretty much oil, corn (or soy),
cattle, mcdonalds...

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message k.net...
william wrote:
snip
I'm afraid food prices are just starting to go up and will continue so.


That really is the point I was reaching for.
Not just complaining about corn.

And as oil prices continue to rise we are going to be faced with some
difficult times and hard choices (like DRIVING to Osh?).

I mean, it's not just gasoline that is increasing, but everything that
is made from it, made with it, or transported.

And THAT includes just about everything.

So I'm really curious...
What comes next?


Richard



It is not gasoline at the auto fuel pumps anymore; it is gasohol! The false labeling needs to stop. It seems that
everyone I say this to says, no, they have to label the pump, and I then correct them and tell them the requirement was
dropped by congress in 2005. They are getting lower energy fuel in the name of 'gasoline.' Most are initially somewhat
shocked, but then they fall back into their consumer mode and just keep on keeping on. Amazing there is not total
outrage about this issue...

Blueskies wrote:

Amazing there is not total
outrage about this issue...



That IS why I brought it up - twice now.

Gotta start somewhere and this the about the most technically
literate news group on the net.


Richard

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
ink.net...
Blueskies wrote:

Amazing there is not total
outrage about this issue...



That IS why I brought it up - twice now.

Gotta start somewhere and this the about the most technically
literate news group on the net.


Richard

Very good point!

Peter

I saw this oneon the evening neus today.

Beer prices expected to be up 15% next year.

Noe that's going too far!

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:22:58 GMT, cavelamb himself
wrote:

william wrote:
snip
I'm afraid food prices are just starting to go up and
will continue so.


That really is the point I was reaching for.
Not just complaining about corn.

And as oil prices continue to rise we are going to be faced with some
difficult times and hard choices (like DRIVING to Osh?).

I mean, it's not just gasoline that is increasing, but everything that
is made from it, made with it, or transported.

And THAT includes just about everything.

So I'm really curious...
What comes next?

BUT as the use of alternative fuels becomes wide spread we will use
less crude and the price will go down. BUT if we are sustaining that
lower gas consumption then the refineries will not produce as much
which will force the price back up. Also as production drops below the
max output for a refinery the efficiency goes down making it more
expensive to produce a gallon of gas which forces the price up.

I would expect the production of gas to be reduced (supply and demand)
to the point where it keeps pace with the price of the fuels replacing
it. However this will force the price of crude down and I would expect
the price of crude to drop considerably which will make the oil
exporting states unhappy so they are likely to reduce production. BUT
although this could raise the price of crude they will be selling far
less of the stuff.

As an interesting side note, if you calculate how much crude is used
to produce fuel for cars and truck, see how much is imported, and then
look at increasing fuel efficiency in cars and trucks we only need to
raise the overall fleet MPG from the current 20.5 (roughly) to about
27 we would be saving more crude than we import. That is unlikely to
happen, but it's still an interesting figure.

In reality we'd still be importing a substantial amount of crude, but
we'd no longer be dependent on having to import it. That *should* mean
a lower price for crude that could be used for things other than gas
and that still takes a lot of crude.

So, it's not a given that everything would *have* to go up in price
but It doesn't mean it wouldn't

For one I would expect those production methods that are less
expensive and more profitable would probably *eventually* replace
the bulk of corn used in the production of ethanol which would result
in one whale of a political battle.

As I've mentioned before, using hemp we could produce more alcohol at
far less cost than using corn. It's also a much more robust crop, that
can grow under widely varying conditions unlike corn. it can also be
grown on land unsuitable for most other crops thus taking less land
out of the food production chain.

To the farmer soybeans, navy beans, wheat, and sugar beets are far
more profitable than raising corn. They are also no where near as hard
on the soil.OTOH navy beans and even beets are quite dependent on the
growing conditions. Of course I'd hate to be trying to raise much of
anything down in Georgia this year. Then there's Texas and the
surrounding states suffering from too much of a good thing but the
drought is certainly over...for the time being.



Richard

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
k.net...

I am remimded of a quote that said, "when otherwise intelligent people
do stupid stuff, there is usually politics involved".

So not only do we pay more for less power in our auto fuel...


http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/20...nd-for-ethanol

One more thing I would like to point out on the corn- food-ethanol debate is
that making ethanol uses only the starch in corn. The protein is still there
and is used as a high quality feed, called dried distillers grains or DDG.
It is mostly feed to cattle. The most effecient ethanol plants have a feed
lot next to them and the solids are feed wet to the cattle saving the energy
usually used to dry the stuff. The cattle manure is used as a source of
methane for energy to run the ethanol plant. It still requires additional
energy, but every savings helps. There are other byproducts of the process
to, but my point is a lot of the corn still is used as food. The main study
the media likes to quote to discredit ethanol was done about 20 years ago
and is hopelessly out of date.

"william" wrote in message
news:Ezrgi.2194$s%.324@trnddc02...
One point to consider when you complain about the price of corn is, $2.00
corn cannot be produced without taxpayer funded price supports, This
morning we could contract corn for December 07' delivery at $3.38 and you
can cut about 30 cents off that for various quality discounts. A farmer is
not getting rich on $3 corn with the much higher input cost we have had in
the past few years. Actually he still needs good weather and careful
managment to make anything. Bottom line, corn is still going to cost the
consumer either at the store or in taxes.
Second point, it was never planned to replace gasoline, just one of many
alternate energy sources and none of them are cheap. The days of cheap
energy are gone and anything that uses energy is going to cost more in the
future including food. I'm afraid food prices are just starting to go up
and will continue so.

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
k.net...
I am remimded of a quote that said, "when otherwise intelligent people
do stupid stuff, there is usually politics involved".

So not only do we pay more for less power in out auto fuel...


http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/20...nd-for-ethanol

"william" wrote in message news:fbzgi.11573$xy.11256@trnddc06...
One more thing I would like to point out on the corn- food-ethanol debate is that making ethanol uses only the starch
in corn. The protein is still there and is used as a high quality feed, called dried distillers grains or DDG. It is
mostly feed to cattle. The most effecient ethanol plants have a feed lot next to them and the solids are feed wet to
the cattle saving the energy usually used to dry the stuff. The cattle manure is used as a source of methane for
energy to run the ethanol plant. It still requires additional energy, but every savings helps. There are other
byproducts of the process to, but my point is a lot of the corn still is used as food. The main study the media likes
to quote to discredit ethanol was done about 20 years ago and is hopelessly out of date.



It is hopeless alright...

It is hopeless alright...


Not to worry! The coming market correction will render large segments
of the population incapable of buying gasohol... That alone will
reduce our energy imbalance there is always a silver lining...

denny

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 04:56:04 -0700, Denny wrote:



It is hopeless alright...


Not to worry! The coming market correction will render large segments
of the population incapable of buying gasohol... That alone will
reduce our energy imbalance there is always a silver lining...

Man, you're about as pessimistic as my doctor! :-)) You must be
related.


denny