Hidden costs of ethenol

Roger,
Most of the corn grown today is no-til. Some areas still plow due to soil
type or continuous corn crops, maybe you live in one of those areas. Under
no-til, it's fertilize, spray, plant, maybe apply more nitrogen, and
harvest. Plowing is very expensive and most farmers avoid it. No-til usually
does better anyway. The main fertilizer corn uses is nitrogen and most of
that production has shifted to areas where they have natural gas as a
by-product of oil production, but no pipe line or LNG to ship it. Otherwise
it would have been burned off or in some cases pumped back in the oil well
to help maintain pressure. I'm not sure all of that should be counted in the
energy equation. As for the labor part, I don't understand your point. The
farmer will still be around if he stops producing corn. He could idle his
equipment and land, get a desk job saving energy and other energy inputs,
but he is still going to use energy to live. I also don't think the farmer's
personal energy consumption should be counted in the conversion. One other
big energy input you did miss is irrigation, but very little corn is grown
under irrigation.


wrote in message
news
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:28:15 -0700, Denny wrote:

Roger, an unsolved issue with alcohol is that smog is produced... I
have not done the reading to see what the solution to that is likely
some form of catalytic convertor so I'm not going to claim it is a
deal breaker, but it is significant...


My understanding is it is a great Ozone producer. I'm not sure how
that works our chemically...chem 111 and 112 were a long way back.

So as with the new energy efficient light bulbs which contain mercury
we are exchanging one pollution problem for another.

For the ethanol lovers, I am not against ethanol just against muddy
thinking...
TO get ethanol for vehicles you:
*haul seed and supplies
*plow

Don't forget, disk, pack, and drag

*spray pesticides and herbicides
*fertilize
*plant
grow awhile
*knife in nitrogen

Don't forget cultivating.

grow a bit more
*herbicides / pesticides again
grow awhile more

Corn takes a lot out of the land. or rephrased, it's depletes the soil
and its success depends on a very narrow range of growing conditions.

*harvest
*haul
ferment

Several handling/separation/pumping steps

*distill
*haul it again
mix with gasoline, or whatever hybrid fuel you make
*haul it again
and finally pump it onto your vehicle

Every step that has an asterisk uses fuel or chemicals or fertilizer
dependent upon petroleum...
The fuel of your grandchildren will be a hydrocarbon product made from
coal, not corn...

For the optimistic, the current "net energy gain" for corn alcohol
_in-a-*good*_growing_year is about 33%. that means for the equivalent
of every two gallons invested we get 2.66 gallons out. Or IOW we
gained a whole 2/3 of a gallon. So we have a 33% gain, but that
doesn't take into account labor. When labor is added in the true price
of that corn alcohol is astronomical whether we pay for it directly at
the pump, or through subsidies to the grower and processor.


denny

Roger (K8RI) wrote:

So as with the new energy efficient light bulbs which contain mercury
we are exchanging one pollution problem for another.

Unfortunately burning fossil fuels (especially coal) releases mercury
into the atmosphere. So you're just changing the source and location of
the mercury.

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:56:46 GMT, cavelamb himself
wrote:


snip

"Just as the events of 9-11 changed how we guard our cities and protect
ourselves, a new generation of ethanol may soon change the way we gas up
our cars and protect the earth." - Dateline NBC

"Our plan to expand into ethanol production has the potential to
generate significant profits and increased shareholder values," JT
Cloud, CEO of Gulf Ethanol.

That it does.

snip

Factors Driving Alternative Energy Investments

* FREEDOM FROM FOREIGN OIL: Ethanol could free America from its
reluctant dependence on foreign oil. This is not a pipedream, conjured

it's doubtful we could make enough alcohol from corn to make more than
a small dent.However using all sources we probably could and becoming
independent of foreign oil is very important. It's also going to be
expensive.



Here is a reply I received back from our Senator here in Michigan:

"Thank you . . .

. . for contacting me about your opposition to the use of ethanol as fuel. I appreciate hearing your views.


I understand your concern that the increased use of corn fuel could contribute to higher corn prices. Corn ethanol is a
first step as we transition into cellulosic ethanol technology, which does not use corn, only agricultural waste
products, and converts them into fuel.

Ethanol is an important piece of the energy puzzle to improve national security; however I recognize that it will not
single-handedly replace gasoline. Congress will tackle these energy questions when it works on the new farm bill this
year, as well as other energy legislation. I will keep your views in mind when the Senate takes up legislation related
to alternative fuels.

Again, thank you for contacting me. Please do not hesitate to do so again if I can be of assistance to you or your
family.

Sincerely,

Debbie Stabenow

United States Senator

DS: il "

Sincerely,

Debbie Stabenow

United States Senator

Interestingly, Debbie is the kind of leftist, socialist, democrat I
love to hate... But she did vote against the Immigration scam, errrr
Bill - and I have to say I am shocked to see that she did... But, at
least she earned the oxygen she is burning for a change...

denny