Aircrew casualities

"ArtKramr" wrote in message Subject: Aircrew casualities
We never tried to shoot down Crew Members in their chutes!

You are thinking of the Japanese.

Erik




War sie im kreig?




Arthur Kramer

Ich war der Fliegeroffizer.

Was soll die ganze Fragerei?

Erik

Subject: Aircrew (Casualties)
From: "Erik Plagen"
Date: 9/17/03 1:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message Subject: Aircrew casualities
We never tried to shoot down Crew Members in their chutes!

You are thinking of the Japanese.

Erik




War sie im kreig?




Arthur Kramer

Ich war der Fliegeroffizer.

Ich auch. Ich war ein bombenschutzer mit der 344 bombengeschwader von 1943 bis
1945.(sp)

Was soll die ganze Fragerei?

War sie ein flieger?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:

War sie im kreig?

Reawj akjlj asjlk;fjk nnbaa afjapo!

-Mike (akjalk) Marron

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
(ArtKramr) wrote:

War sie im kreig?

Reawj akjlj asjlk;fjk nnbaa afjapo!

-Mike (akjalk) Marron

What sock were you, before you became Maron?

Subject: Aircrew casualities
From: Mike Marron
Date: 9/17/03 4:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

War sie im kreig?

Reawj akjlj asjlk;fjk nnbaa afjapo!

-Mike (akjalk) Marron


OH YEAH ! (grin)
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Erik Plagen" wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Haven't you heard all the stories of the Luftwaffe strafing downed
allied pilots coming down their chutes

That;s all they were- "stories" or fairy tales!

We never tried to shoot down Crew Members in their chutes!

You are thinking of the Japanese.

Nope, I'm thinking of the Germans. In fact, I've heard Chuck Yeager
himself during an interview describe how the Germans were known
to strafe downed allied airmen descending in their chutes.

Note the part in the story below that says, "Careful to delay pulling
his ripcord."

From the "FIGHTER PILOT" email list:

***

Chuck Yeager, as an eighteen-year old West Virginia country boy,
joined the U.S. Army Air Corps in 1941. He later shot down eleven
[and one-half ] German aircraft including two Me-262 jet fighters.

Yeager was also shot down over France, successfully evaded,
joined the Maquis, and made his way back to England via
Spain. Contrary to war policy, he somehow persuaded the brass
to let him continue flying fighter missions in Europe all of this by
the age of twenty-two.

Born in 1923, Yeager's dirt-poor youth was filled with hillbilly
themes that might sound quaint and romantic today. But probably
weren't much fun at the time .. going barefoot all summer ..
butchering hogs .. swiping neighbor's water melons. But at an early
age Chuck was able to do well at anything requiring manual
dexterity or working with numbers.

After graduating form high school, Yeager enlisted in the
Air Corps and became an airplane mechanic. He hated flying ..
after vomiting his first time in the air. But when he was given the
chance came to become a ' flying sergeant ' and avoid further
K.P.duties, he won acceptance for flight training.

Yeager's manual dexterity, keen eyesight, and excellent memory
would continue to impress his flight training instructors.

He moved up to P-39 fighters and joined a fighter training squadron
in Tonopah, Nevada. At Tonopah, he first developed a fighter pilot's
detached attitude toward death .. even getting irritated at the other
flying students he thought had been killed needlessly .. or through
lack of skill.

During the ruthless weeding-out process in Nevada, the student pilots
managed to work as hard at playing as they did flying. And he and his
lifelong friend, Bud Anderson, made it through the process together.

When his squadron moved to the West Coast to train for bomber
escort missions, Yeager was temporarily sent to Wright Field, to
test out newly designed P-39 propellors. While there, he also sniveled
opportunities to fly the new P-47 fighter aircraft. He rejoined his
squadron, in California, where he met his future wife Glennis. "
Pretty as a movie star and making more money than I was", Yeager
recalls.

His squadron moved on to Wyoming for additional training. But
Wyoming was also a location for great hunting. Chuck recalls carefully
herding antelopes, with his P-39, to a predetermined location, where
his armed buddies had a field day; he and his squadronmates feasted
on antelope filet steaks for a month.

But on another day, his engine blew up and his P-39 burst into flames.
He bailed out - hit the ground hard -and was hospitalized, for a time,
with a fractured spine.

Yeager was able to be shipped out for Europe with his squadron. And
they began operations in England in early 1944, as the first P-51
Mustang equipped unit in the Eighth Air Force. On his seventh mission,
Yeager shot down his first Messerschmitt and the next day .. three
FW-190s shot him down. Yeager bailed out over occupied France.
Careful to delay pulling his ripcord, he fell close to the ground to
avoid the possibility of his descending parachute getting
strafed by tempted German fighters.

He had landed about 50 miles east of Bordeaux. Injured and
bleeding, but armed with a forty-five caliber pistol, Yeager was
determined to evade over the Pyrenees mountains into Spain. He
hid in the woods the first night, ate stale chocolate from his
survival kit and huddled under this parachute. The next
morning, he encountered a woodcutter who was in contact with
the Resistance.

They couldn't communicate very well, but the woodcutter gestured for
Yeager to stay put. Uncertain as to the Frenchman's loyalties, but
having no better choices, he stayed, but trained his gun on the
woodcutter's path; the woodcutter returned with members of the
Resistance.

His new friends hid him in a barn, while the Germans searched. An
English-speaking woman questioned him. Then satisfied that he
was not a German ' plant', the local resistance people assisted him,
starting with a local doctor who removed shrapnel from his leg. Then
he was taken to the nearest Maquis group, to hide out until the snow
had melted enough to permit passage over the Pyrenees. Yeager
was an outsider and relations were sometimes strained, but they
accepted him when he assisted them in fusing plastic explosives.

He made it into Spain and found his way to the American consul's
office. After he languished in a Spanish hotel for six weeks, the U.S.
government negotiated a deal with the Franco government and
swapped some quantity of Texaco gasoline for him. The other
357th pilots were shocked when Yeager walked in the door; he
was the first downed fighter pilot to have evaded successfully.

Well-considered combat rules forbade the return of evaded pilots to
the fighting because they would be able to reveal information about
the Resistance if they were shot down a second time. But Chuck Yeager
would have none of it; he was determined to return to combat.
The ' evader rule' was strict, but Yeager appealed all the way
to ' Ike', who promised to "do what he could." While the decision was
pending, Yeager's Group let him fly training missions.

But when he was called to cover a downed pilot in the English Channel
a Ju-88 appeared. Yeager couldn't restrain himself .. he shot it down
just off the German occupied coast. Now in big trouble, he gifted his
gun camera footage and the victory to a buddy .. but he was found out
and caught hell for it.

Ike allowed Yeager to return to air combat in the summer of 1944. And
he returned with a vengeance. He flew in a four plane division with
double aces Bud Anderson and Don Bochkay At first, the pickings were
slim, as the German fliers seemed to be laying low. And on September
18, he flew in support of glider drops over Arnhem, but couldn't do
much to stop the appalling slaughter of the C-47s. On the plus side,
he received a commission as a Lieutenant.

While leading a bomber escort over Bremen Germany, Yeager became
an 'ace-in-a-day'. As he closed in on one 109 and his wingman, its
pilot broke left and ran into his wingman. Both German pilots bailed
out .. giving Yeager credit for two victories .. without his having to
fire a shot. In the sharp dogfighting that followed, Yeager's superb
eye sight .. flying skills .. and marksmanship .. gave him three more
quick kills.

The German Me-262 jets appeared in combat in late 1944, but went right
after the Allied bombers, avoiding dogfights with the Mustangs.
Whenever the jet fighters wanted to, they could just accelerate away
from the Mustangs with a 150 MPH speed advantage. One day he caught
one of the jets as it approached its airfield for a landing. Attacking
through dense flak, Yeager attacked and shot down the German jet,
earning a DFC for the feat.

He flew his final mission in January, 1945 when he and friend Bud
Anderson carried out their scheme to sign on as "spares" creating an
opportunity to do some uninhibited flying. Anderson describes this in
his autobiography, To Fly And To Fight: "

***

We hit the Dutch coast, took a right .. and flew south, at 500 feet
across France into Switzerland. Chuck was the guide. And I was the
tourist. We dropped our fuel tanks on Mount Blanc and strafed them,
trying to set them afire [ it seemed like a good idea at the time ],
then found Lake Annecy, and its lakeshore hotel. We buzzed the hotel,
fast enough and low enough to ' tug at the shingles' and then we
zoomed out over the water, right on the deck, our props throwing up
mist. "

" We'd just shot up a mountain in a neutral country, buzzed half of
Europe, and probably could have been court-martialed on any one of a
half-dozen charges. But it didn't matter. We were aglow. It was over,
we had survived, we were finished, and now we would go home together.

When we landed at Leiston, my crew chief jumped on my wing, " Group
got more than 50 [victories] today. Must've been something. How many
did you get? "

" None, " I confessed in a small, strangled voice. I felt sick.

[abridged]

Mike Marron wrote:

"Erik Plagen" wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Haven't you heard all the stories of the Luftwaffe strafing downed
allied pilots coming down their chutes

That;s all they were- "stories" or fairy tales!

We never tried to shoot down Crew Members in their chutes!

You are thinking of the Japanese.

Nope, I'm thinking of the Germans. In fact, I've heard Chuck Yeager
himself during an interview describe how the Germans were known
to strafe downed allied airmen descending in their chutes.

snip

There were certainly instances (on both sides) of this happening, and it
was widely believed (again, by both sides) that the other side was just
looking for opportunities to do so, but it was an individual thing, not an
order. It tended to be crews with better reasons to hate, i.e. a pilot
whose family had been killed by bombing, or pilots of some of the occupied
countries (the Poles come to mind). And there were the occasional
bloodthirsty or just plain ruthless types on both sides. There was little
reason for the Germans to strafe parachutes when they were on the
defensive, because the crews were almost certain to be captured. There
was more reason for the allies to do so when they were on the offensive,
because any German pilot who survived was likely to be back in the air;
most of the top German aces were shot down numerous times. The situation
was the reverse in the BoB, where it would have made sense for the Germans
to shoot British pilots as they descended, but was pointless for the
British. There seems to have been one exception: in the case of the
Me-262, US fighter pilots were ordered to kill the pilots, in their chutes
or on the ground, according to Yeager and/or Clarence 'Bud' Anderson in
their biographies.

Guy

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Mike Marron wrote:

"Erik Plagen" wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Haven't you heard all the stories of the Luftwaffe strafing downed
allied pilots coming down their chutes

That;s all they were- "stories" or fairy tales!

We never tried to shoot down Crew Members in their chutes!

You are thinking of the Japanese.

Nope, I'm thinking of the Germans. In fact, I've heard Chuck Yeager
himself during an interview describe how the Germans were known
to strafe downed allied airmen descending in their chutes.

snip

There were certainly instances (on both sides) of this happening, and it
was widely believed (again, by both sides) that the other side was just
looking for opportunities to do so, but it was an individual thing, not an
order. It tended to be crews with better reasons to hate, i.e. a pilot
whose family had been killed by bombing, or pilots of some of the occupied
countries (the Poles come to mind). And there were the occasional
bloodthirsty or just plain ruthless types on both sides. There was little
reason for the Germans to strafe parachutes when they were on the
defensive, because the crews were almost certain to be captured. There
was more reason for the allies to do so when they were on the offensive,
because any German pilot who survived was likely to be back in the air;
most of the top German aces were shot down numerous times. The situation
was the reverse in the BoB, where it would have made sense for the Germans
to shoot British pilots as they descended, but was pointless for the
British. There seems to have been one exception: in the case of the
Me-262, US fighter pilots were ordered to kill the pilots, in their chutes
or on the ground, according to Yeager and/or Clarence 'Bud' Anderson in
their biographies.

Guy


During the BOB Dowding specifically ordered the RAF not
to strafe German pilots who had bailed out over UK territory

He made the point that under international law once the
pilot had bailed out over enemy territory he was no longer
an enemy combatant but a surrndering prisoner. German
pilots over occupied territory or British pilots over the
UK were fair game.

Keith

Guy Alcala wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:
"Erik Plagen" wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

"Erik Plagen" wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Haven't you heard all the stories of the Luftwaffe strafing downed
allied pilots coming down their chutes

That;s all they were- "stories" or fairy tales!

We never tried to shoot down Crew Members in their chutes!

You are thinking of the Japanese.

Nope, I'm thinking of the Germans. In fact, I've heard Chuck Yeager
himself during an interview describe how the Germans were known
to strafe downed allied airmen descending in their chutes.

snip

There were certainly instances (on both sides) of this happening, and it
was widely believed (again, by both sides) that the other side was just
looking for opportunities to do so, but it was an individual thing, not an
order. It tended to be crews with better reasons to hate, i.e. a pilot
whose family had been killed by bombing, or pilots of some of the occupied
countries (the Poles come to mind). And there were the occasional
bloodthirsty or just plain ruthless types on both sides.


"bloodthirsty or just plain ruthless types" - or the just plain
stupid, who do not realise that in fact it will be his own fellow
aviators who will be killed in the spiral which he has initiated, and
for something they never had anything to do with.


Overall an excellent appraisal Mr Alacala. And applicable not just to
bailed-out aircrew. Similar with "machine-gunned in the water" after
abandoning ship, "took no prisoners", "are killing our PoWs" ,etc. The
rumour is the dangerous since it can get the whole thing started
without anyone ever committing such an act.

Unfortunately, it cannot be undone by reversing the spiral, i.e.
circling back over the recently landed aviator as he gathers his
'chute and dropping a picnic hamper and a bottle of Beaujolais Premier
or similar.

Mike Marron wrote in message . ..
"Erik Plagen" wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Haven't you heard all the stories of the Luftwaffe strafing downed
allied pilots coming down their chutes

That;s all they were- "stories" or fairy tales!

We never tried to shoot down Crew Members in their chutes!

You are thinking of the Japanese.

Nope, I'm thinking of the Germans. In fact, I've heard Chuck Yeager
himself during an interview describe how the Germans were known
to strafe downed allied airmen descending in their chutes.

Note the part in the story below that says, "Careful to delay pulling
his ripcord."


It is very unlikely that any Luftwaffe pilot would shoot an American
pilot in his chute if he was descending on their territory. The
description you posted would suggest that the experienced German
pilots were to be destroyed as they landed or took off and the
amateurs might be relied upon to kill themselves.