F-86 and sound barrier

"Gordon" wrote in message
...

There's a small problem with this myth. At speeds beyond Mach 0.88, the
Me 262 begins shedding major components, wings and such.

But Corey, you lied about Copp, so why would anyone at ram ever believe
you
again?

How about me? I don't know Copp from Copralite, but I _know_ that the Me
262
was a subsonic airframe with subsonic engines.

Hey, how are you doing Gordon. I don't doubt what you know, I just see no
purpose to parrots.

Hey, how are you doing Gordon.

Doing better every day - thanks for asking.

I don't doubt what you know, I just see no
purpose to parrots.

Sorry, I just get upset when I see folks posting chaff about one of the very
few subjects that I feel qualified to comment upon. I don't know what Rob's
garage looks like, but mine is packed chest high with file boxes from BAMA and
NARA, loaded with little but Me 262 documents. I know Rob loves his subject,
but I wish he'd take the extra step of trying to verify what he posts, instead
of saying, "I read it in ONE book, so its carved in stone." I've yet to see
him respond to any of the specific points I raise, concerning the engine
nacelle shape, pilot names, etc., but I guess I am ****ing him off by simply
not agreeing that the 262 is somehow capable of supersonic flight. It isn't,
and he has no ability to prove it was.

You want to know something odd? That pilot's manual, with its subtle reference
to supersonic characteristics, is one of the first books I ever owned (I had
the older Aero publications version). That paragraph really got me going and
because of it, I asked every jet pilot I could find if it were possible. Its
one of the questions that sent me off on 20+ years of researching the Me 262.
Strange to see that old book, and its single reference, leading someone else
down a blind corridor. The real problem is that he will not have the benefit
of first hand information, from people who were there, to draw from to help him
form an informed opinion on the matter.

Gordon

"Gordon" wrote in message
...

Hey, how are you doing Gordon.

Doing better every day - thanks for asking.

I don't doubt what you know, I just see no
purpose to parrots.

Sorry, I just get upset when I see folks posting chaff about one of the
very
few subjects that I feel qualified to comment upon.

Well ya' know, I have had my fill of kook trolls. I know I was probably as
guilty as anyone for supporting the Shafer kook troll, but at some point it
gets a little rediculess. I mean, I know Bon-Myer and Myer, they once asked
to be my friends. Lately though, we still have Willshaw quoting the Shafer
kook troll on grape vines; and at the same time denying a big part of San
Juaquin Valley history.

"Gordon" wrote in message
...

There's a small problem with this myth. At speeds beyond Mach 0.88,
the
Me 262 begins shedding major components, wings and such.

But Corey, you lied about Copp, so why would anyone at ram ever
believe you
again?

How about me? I don't know Copp from Copralite, but I _know_ that the
Me 262
was a subsonic airframe with subsonic engines.

Copralite -- petrified dinosaur poop?
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Copralite -- petrified dinosaur poop?

'zactly

"Gordon" wrote in message
...

Copralite -- petrified dinosaur poop?

'zactly

As opposed to the parrot being a dinosaur poop salesman.

Shafer and Bon-Myer were lucky to be let walk away, as opposed to some
Federal charges. In addition to that RIF, Dryden is looking at a cut from
$120 million this year to $80 million in FY04. The money that I made fall
from the sky for 15 years is gone, along with any credibility the facility
still had. Thanks Dudley.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:33:37 -0700, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:

Snipped botched lobotomy induced drivel....

I thought California was restricting internet access at State institutions.
Guess they haven't gotten to Tarver's ward yet....

I recently read a newspaper story about a Jackass that wandered away from
a petting zoo and was struck by some dork doing 120 mph in a WRX.

Figured he was still in the hospital....

I wonder if Tarver even knows what a WRX is? I'm pretty sure he can't spell it.

Finally, is this a relative of your's Tarver?

From Annanova.com:
"A student cut off his own penis and his tongue after drinking an infusion of
the latest drugs craze to sweep Germany.

The 18-year-old, only named as Andreas W, from Halle in Germany drank a tea made
with the hallucinogenic angels' trumpet plants.

His mother said: "Andreas was behaving normally the whole day until he left the
house and disappeared into the garden for a couple of minutes."

When he returned to the house he was wearing a towel wrapped around him and was
bleeding heavily from his mouth and between his legs.

The emergency doctor who arrived a few minutes later said the student had cut
off his penis and his tongue with garden shears and it was impossible to
reattach the organs."

I ask because you have a lot in common, including not being able to talk about
getting laid....

5 little known facts about Tarver:

5) His favorite pickup line is; "hey babe, your place or my moms?"
4) His greatest moment of clarity arrived and all he could say was, "Someone
pull this wolverine off my nutsack!"
3) Chuck Yeager stopped by to see his simulator, but figured he didn't want to

sit in another AN-AL-2003 certified Cambodian fart basket.
2) Tarver is really a cranky South L.A. Korean grocer.
1) The inside of his hat smells like someone cured a Christmas ham in it.


Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

Hi all,

The 'Welch/Yeager' argument conveniently ignores the NAA flight records for the
period in question. Either Blackburn didn't have these for his book or chose to
ignore them, but they clearly detail Welch's undercarriage problem on October
1, 1947 and also detail the redesign necessary prior to the next flight with
the undercarriage functioning. To suggest that NAA had to bolt the gear down to
prevent Welch going supersonic is ridiculous.

Incidentally, Blackburn also conveniently neglects to include the fact that
Welch had a P-82 chase for the first flight; it would have been difficult (not
to say crass) for Welch to sneak off and break the sound barrier with a chase
craft trying to determine the damage caused by the undercarriage malfunction
which happened during climb-out on flight number 1.

Much as I love the F-86, it wasn't first to Mach 1. There is (and always has
been) no subsitute for good research.

Duncan

On 22 Sep 2003 17:24:26 GMT, (DunxC) wrote:

Hi all,

The 'Welch/Yeager' argument conveniently ignores the NAA flight records for the
period in question. Either Blackburn didn't have these for his book or chose to
ignore them, but they clearly detail Welch's undercarriage problem on October
1, 1947 and also detail the redesign necessary prior to the next flight with
the undercarriage functioning. To suggest that NAA had to bolt the gear down to
prevent Welch going supersonic is ridiculous.

Blackburn does not ignore the problem with the nose gear cylinder. I suggest
you re-read his book (I read the galleys months before the book went into
print and received one of the first books off the press).

The next flight was on October 9, before then, the NAA guys had already solved
the nose gear problem and wanted to install the fix ASAP... Over objections,
they were ordered to "bolt" the gear down and disable the handle. It seems the
USAF wanted their inspectors to check the fix prior to installation. Should
anyone be surprised that they said it may take two weeks to do the inspection?
As it was, the inspection did not occur until October 11, and it took two days
to install and do a series of drop checks on the jacks.



Incidentally, Blackburn also conveniently neglects to include the fact that
Welch had a P-82 chase for the first flight; it would have been difficult (not
to say crass) for Welch to sneak off and break the sound barrier with a chase
craft trying to determine the damage caused by the undercarriage malfunction
which happened during climb-out on flight number 1.

Again, you are flagrantly incorrect. Bob Chilton was flying the F-82 chase
plane and he orbited at 15,000 ft while Welch went off to wring out the Sabre.
Welch did not "sneak off", he merely informed Chilton that he was going up to
"feel it out". Chilton confirmed that the gear was up and locked visually prior
to Welch climbing out.

By the way, the "damage" was the result of a design fault in the nose gear
extension mechanism, not a result of excessive speed on climbout. The gear
would retract, but not extend fully due to aerodynamic forces. Once airspeed had
dropped to below 80 knots, the cylinder was able to fully extend and lock the
gear over-center.


Much as I love the F-86, it wasn't first to Mach 1. There is (and always has
been) no subsitute for good research.

Duncan

I agree, and you might want to practice it yourself.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

(Corey C. Jordan)

wrote:Again, you are flagrantly incorrect. Bob Chilton was flying the F-82
chase
plane and he orbited at 15,000 ft while Welch went off to wring out the
Sabre.

Anyone know what happened to Bob Chilton? Thx.
VL