Daddy! What did you do?!!!

EridanMan wrote:
I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

I haven't flown repeatedly in enough different class B to correlate
attitude to a particular location, but I have flown VFR in a light
single across the country and back twice and flown in or near class B
in at least Phoenix, Las Vegas, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh,
Philadelphia, and Memphis. On my initial call, I usually try to give
an approach controller an opportunity to call back when he has a break
in the action by saying something like "Approach, Grumman 12345, VFR
with request". I've had responses all the way from "Grumman 12345
squawk VFR, remain VFR, remain clear of class bravo airspace good day"
to the usual "Grumman 12345 say request" to "Grumman 12345 RADAR
contact 30 east of XYZ level 8500, XYZ altimeter 29.92, squawk 4567,
cleared into class bravo airspace, let me know when you want to
descend".

-R

Rob wrote in
ps.com:

EridanMan wrote:
I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

I haven't flown repeatedly in enough different class B to correlate
attitude to a particular location, but I have flown VFR in a light
single across the country and back twice and flown in or near class B
in at least Phoenix, Las Vegas, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh,
Philadelphia, and Memphis. On my initial call, I usually try to give
an approach controller an opportunity to call back when he has a break
in the action by saying something like "Approach, Grumman 12345, VFR
with request". I've had responses all the way from "Grumman 12345
squawk VFR, remain VFR, remain clear of class bravo airspace good day"
to the usual "Grumman 12345 say request" to "Grumman 12345 RADAR
contact 30 east of XYZ level 8500, XYZ altimeter 29.92, squawk 4567,
cleared into class bravo airspace, let me know when you want to
descend".

-R


The most interesting response I had was going into LAS many years ago,
shortly after the air space became alphabet soup. I was over Hoover Dam
and the frequency stated on ATIS was non-stop with air tour traffic.
Looking at the TAC, there was a diffeent frequency listed for that area, so
I tried it. It appeared quiet, so I broadcast "Las Vegas Approach, Archer
12345 over Hoover Damn squawking VFR request". The response, much to my
surprise, was "Archer 12345 squawk 1234 clear to enter the Las Vegas Class
Bravo say request."

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Wow, ok, I think this might almost be worth an entirely new thread
but...

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!)

Generally I would take such advice with a grain of salt, if it weren't
for the large variety of (in my opinion) very skilled, experienced,
and professional pilots who had all provided the _EXACT_ same advice:

(and from now on, I'm paraphrasing)

They all say the same thing... "With request" is akin to "asking for
advice", I.E. "I'm not sure if I need X service or not, so I'm going
to take your airtime and ask you if your willing to give it to me...
But its not that important".

That's not their job, their job is to keep everything flowing
smoothly, not tell you whether or not you should take X or Y route...
You are the PIC, you hold the flight plan, you decide where your plane
is going. Your job is simply to inform them of your plan as clearly
and professionally as possible, and they will inform you if
circumstances require you to deviate from it. Nothing more, nothing
less.

/Paraphrase

I'll be the first to admit I'm 160 hour pilot... a rookie at best
(neophyte more like it)... But this advice comes from an ATP, the
owner of a local Aircraft Dealership, and my Instructor - none of whom
have ever met eachother, all of whom are in the 4 and 5 figures of
flight time, and the explanation given was always the same.

And, it kinda makes sense...

IMHO at least.

EridanMan wrote:

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!)

I seem to recall reading a Don Brown column on Avweb some time ago where he encouraged the "with
request" on initial call up. He said this helps the controller to realize that this is someone new that he
hasn't been talking to, rather than having to scan his scope and try to determine if this is a tail number
that he should be recognizing. I've had a few occasions where the controller will come back with a
squawk code immediately, and then ask for the request. So it gives them a heads up without taking a lot
of air time on initial call up.

Mike

EridanMan wrote in
ups.com:

Wow, ok, I think this might almost be worth an entirely new thread
but...

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!)

Generally I would take such advice with a grain of salt, if it weren't
for the large variety of (in my opinion) very skilled, experienced,
and professional pilots who had all provided the _EXACT_ same advice:

(and from now on, I'm paraphrasing)

They all say the same thing... "With request" is akin to "asking for
advice", I.E. "I'm not sure if I need X service or not, so I'm going
to take your airtime and ask you if your willing to give it to me...
But its not that important".

That's not their job, their job is to keep everything flowing
smoothly, not tell you whether or not you should take X or Y route...
You are the PIC, you hold the flight plan, you decide where your plane
is going. Your job is simply to inform them of your plan as clearly
and professionally as possible, and they will inform you if
circumstances require you to deviate from it. Nothing more, nothing
less.

/Paraphrase

I'll be the first to admit I'm 160 hour pilot... a rookie at best
(neophyte more like it)... But this advice comes from an ATP, the
owner of a local Aircraft Dealership, and my Instructor - none of whom
have ever met eachother, all of whom are in the 4 and 5 figures of
flight time, and the explanation given was always the same.

And, it kinda makes sense...

IMHO at least.


The preference changes with facility!

I learned to fly at SJC at the time when both SJC and OAK were ARSA
airports. At SJC, unless I wanted to stay in the pattern, I needed to call
clearance delivery before calling ground. The first time I went into
Oakland, I did the same thing as it, too, was an ARSA airport. Oakland
clearance informed me that for VFR departures, I should just call ground
directly. Here are two nearby airports with different preferences.

Again, from an old tour of Bay Approach, Bay said they prefer you give
them the whole spiel on initial call up, - ie. Bugsmasher 12345 4,500 over
LVK landing SJC with delta or Bugsmasher 12345 off RHV 1,500 climbing 4,500
VFR TVL request radar services. But they told me other facilities prefer a
short call, ie. Bugsmasher 12345 off RHV squawking VFR request.

In any area, I listen and if the frequency is very busy, I give the
short "request" form, otherwise I give the whole speil on initial call up.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Aug 25, 12:40 am, EridanMan wrote:
Wow, ok, I think this might almost be worth an entirely new thread
but...

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!)

Generally I would take such advice with a grain of salt, if it weren't
for the large variety of (in my opinion) very skilled, experienced,
and professional pilots who had all provided the _EXACT_ same advice:

(and from now on, I'm paraphrasing)

They all say the same thing... "With request" is akin to "asking for
advice", I.E. "I'm not sure if I need X service or not, so I'm going
to take your airtime and ask you if your willing to give it to me...
But its not that important".

I really don't care what a controller thinks of me. In fact, he should
be more concerned about what I think of him. I am the customer, not
him, and the customer is always right. If he wants me to talk to him
then he can put up with my idisyncracies or he can quit being a
controller, because I really don't need him.

You get some controllers who blather on forever and you can't get a
word in edgewise. In such a case, I am not going to initiate my call
with some long request. I am going to wait until he has time to take
my request. There is nothing wrong with saying "with request" in such
a case.

Methinks too many pilots are a little too self-conscious when dealing
with authority, forgetting that they are the pilot in command. I don't
have a need to impress controllers with my ability.

Hi,

In article om,
wrote:

On my initial call, I usually try to give an approach controller an
opportunity to call back when he has a break in the action by saying
something like "Approach, Grumman 12345, VFR with request".

Here in the UK, I think the recommended form is for the initial
transmission just to include the request. The conversation goes something
like:

XYZ Radar, G-ABCD request flight information service

G-CD, pass your message

G-CD is a Piper Warrior, from Heathrow to Gatwick, currently 5 miles north
of Gatwick. Request flight information service.

Apparently, the first call allows the controller to select the right colour
strip based on what your request is going to be, before you start passing
him reams of information that he isn't ready to write down.

Andy

"EridanMan" wrote:

I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
the country,

There is.

In my experience, Atlanta and Dallas are always hyper and very curt. Houston
can be high stress too, but will sometimes be laid back and helpful.

New Orleans is, well, N' Awlins.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

In my experience, Atlanta and Dallas are always hyper and very curt.

Hmmm...I did my commercial/instrument training at Corsicana, Tx.
(Navarro College) and made regular forrays to Love field (Southwest's
home). I loved the sprawling metropolis, especially at night, and the
tour of downtown Big D approaching Love was always a treat.
I was never under the impression that Dallas was hyper or curt,
although maybe they were and that's all I had experience with at the
time.
Going to Love seemed easy, just call regional approach shortly after
departure from Corsicana and do what they tell you...

Ricky

"Ricky" wrote:

In my experience, Atlanta and Dallas are always hyper and very curt.

Hmmm...I did my commercial/instrument training at Corsicana, Tx.
(Navarro College) and made regular forrays to Love field (Southwest's
home). I loved the sprawling metropolis, especially at night, and the
tour of downtown Big D approaching Love was always a treat.
I was never under the impression that Dallas was hyper or curt,
although maybe they were and that's all I had experience with at the
time.


I bow to your experience. I've only flown there a few times, and always on
weekdays.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM