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#1
September 8th 07, 12:27 AM
posted to us.military.army,us.military,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.navy
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Pentagon 'three-day blitz' plan for attacking Iran
On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:40:01 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote: In message , Bill Kambic writes On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:27:44 +0100, "Paul J. Adam" wrote: What, all military decisions require on-the-spot signoff by the Commander in Chief? Simply put, yes. So if PFC Leroy-Joe Rodriguez, doing top cover for a vehicle patrol in Sadr City, sees someone pointing an RPG at him he has to contact Washington and ask for Presidential authorisation before he's allowed to fire his weapon? Now you're being silly. The PFC in question will act IAW with his Rules of Engagement. THOSE were promulgated by higher authority and could have come straight from the White House. That's not the way we do business, and I don't *think* it's how the US does business, but I could be wrong. Yes, in this case you are. (Apart from anything else, the recent unfortunate incident in Afghanistan - several UK KIA from a US F-15's ordnance - gets a nasty political dimension if you're seriously telling me that the President of the United States personally signed off on the decision to release that weapon. I'm not sure that you are.) Again, the pilot of an armed aircraft has rules he operates by. If he screws up he might have committed a crime; he might have just made a tragic mistake. Except that this scenario describes enough surveillance and intelligence to have a decent confidence of bin-Laden's whereabouts and movement, and sufficient military assets in place to make a credible effort at killing him. All that effort and nobody sorted out delegation? There's no need to sort out anything. The chain of command is clear. No, it isn't, in this case. Is this an operation to locate, confirm and eradicate Osama bin-Laden or not? If the President (or an officer acting at his direction) says "yes" then that's the answer. Did nobody stop to consider "what if the President is not immediately available?" If WJC won't look away from his TV, how about the Vice-President? Is the President the absolute one-and-only person able to make this decision, and must it be left this late when the opportunity is fleeting? Somebody might be willing to take the shot (and the responsibility). If he gets the bad guy with no collateral damage he'll get a medal (on the time honored military principle that It's Always Easier To Get Forgiveness Than Permission. If he kills a bunch of cilvilians and misses the bad guy he'll likely get court-marialed. If he gets the bad guy and a bunch of civilians you won't hear many details until the New York Once Upon A Times get's hold of it. If this mission is so important, why is nobody trying to make it happen? I dunno. I'm not in ithat loop. It definitely smacks of an after-the-fact wah rather than a credible event, to be blunt. You might be right. I rather hope not - we prefer "Mission Command" to "Do absolutely nothing without Downing Street's approval in quadruplicate". Well, I too sometimes prefer to leave decisions to the professionals. But that carries with it it's own set of problems. To call Clinton Era military policy "risk adverse" would be to make one othe most profound understatements of all time. But our Constitution sets out the President as CinC and we take an oath to uphold that Constitution and to obey the orders of said President (even if he's lying, craven, *******'s whoreson). Which brings its own set of problems: wasn't this the period where Clinton was being warned that members of his own military intended to murder him given the chance? (Some Southern senator warning him off visiting bases in the region, IIRC) I never heard that. Likely it's PR from the DNC. When the military is as open in expressing its contempt and disdain for its elected leader as that, are you *really* surprised that you don't occupy a close place in his heart or high regard in his mind? Well, I suspect that this has happened before and will happen again. It's not a question of "love" or even "respect." It's a question of obedience and honoring an oath. And when somebody DOES do as you suggest we have something like Iran-Contra. No matter how this might be viewed in other quarters it was a truly renegade operation in violation of Federal law. Then that suggests Iran-Contra was a bad move, correct? No, Sir, it says it was an unlawful move. Not that it's hard to spot: just what suggested that the mad mullahs of Tehran would be grateful, helpful or friendly allies, especially since the US was merely replenishing the arms stocks they were using against Iraq, who we were vigorously supporting as our bastion against the expansion of radical Shi'a Islam in the region... (it's a good "what were they thinking?" question with no good answer yet) Op PREYING MANTIS was textbook naval warfare and much admired, but hardly indicative of friendly trusting relations between the US and the Iranians - so why were you helping them tool up and rearm? But I'd offer this scenario. Let's assume Colin is correct, and that having committed serious resources to finding, identifying and confirming Osama bin-Laden, he could suddenly be killed with a word on the radio, a push of the button, pick your movie cliche, though the opportunity will be short. The President refuses to turn away from his basketball game, contemptuously dismisses his uniformed lackeys when they approach him, sets all that work at naught. Now, me? I'd say "take the shot" and explain to the President that I'd verbally briefed him about this, that we would get one chance, and that I could offer him a veto over the final step, and I'd *offered* him that veto and he'd refused it so I was left to assume his consent and act accordingly... and so it goes. But that's hindsight from a different country, and I'm a good enough engineer to get another job if I need one: this gives me a certain confidence in challenging bull**** when I see it  See above for possible outcomes. :-) I'm sadly more confident that the UK response - and the US probably has similar problems - ties up in knots about demanding collateral damage prediction, legal signoff, and other grief to defend against allegations of dropping baby-seeking cluster bombs with depleted-uranium napalm-filled warheads on innocent civilians... but my cynicism usually overrides my politics. (And you can do a lot of that planning in advance, even if it does keep the staff busy - you shouldn't have joined if you can't take a joke. Good planning and a glum disposition can prepare you for a lot.) We can argue the wisdom of tying ourselves into legal knots, but the legality of the system is beyond question. From here, it looks like decisions normally delegated down as far as aircraft cockpits are suddenly being booted up to the White House. At best it sounds like an excuse, at worst it looks like invention or even insubordination. Mileage may vary, of course, and I'm just amazed to find myself defending Bill Clinton. Ever since the invention of the telegraph we've seen what ought to be "tactical" decisions elevated to "matters of state." It's alleged that during VietNam the President would sit in bed drinking coffee and making target selections from lists provided to him. I don't know if that is true, but I do know that the rules of engagement were not calculated to lead to a successful air campaign. At the end of the day we are left with Chairman Mao's observation that "war is politics by other means." (I've heard that this is not really original with the Chariman. ;-) ). So if you take a step that's outside your rules of engagement and pull it off with no adverse consequences than you'll be a hero; if not you'll be the "goat." 
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#2
September 8th 07, 06:18 AM
posted to us.military.army,us.military,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.navy
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Pentagon 'three-day blitz' plan for attacking Iran
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#3
September 10th 07, 12:18 PM
posted to us.military.army,us.military,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.navy
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Pentagon 'three-day blitz' plan for attacking Iran
Bill Kambic wrote:
We can argue the wisdom of tying ourselves into legal knots, but the legality of the system is beyond question. ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? 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?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? Jack
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#4
September 7th 07, 10:59 PM
posted to us.military.army,us.military,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.navy
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Pentagon 'three-day blitz' plan for attacking Iran
On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:27:44 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote: In message , Colin Campbell writes On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:20:53 +0100, "Paul J. Adam" wrote: In message , Colin Campbell writes The problem was that by the time the basketball game ended their chance to get him had passed. They had options, but when they had the chance - they could not pry Clinton away from the TV set. You mean your time-sensitive targeting is entirely dependent on your President's personal habits? That is the way this sort of thing works in a democracy. What, all military decisions require on-the-spot signoff by the Commander in Chief? All of the ones where he has not delegated the authority. The military implements policy and does not attack other nations unless ordered to by the President. Except that this scenario describes enough surveillance and intelligence to have a decent confidence of bin-Laden's whereabouts and movement, and sufficient military assets in place to make a credible effort at killing him. All that effort and nobody sorted out delegation? The military does what the President says. If the President refused to delegate that sort of decision, then the military has to abide by that decision. This all boils down to the fact that the military follows the polices set by the President. If he has stated that he has to give approval for certain types of operations then the military has to wait on his decision. What we have here is an example of why military morale was so poor during the Clinton years. -- There can be no triumph without loss. No victory without suffering. No freedom without sacrifice.
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#5
September 7th 07, 11:49 PM
posted to us.military.army,us.military,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.navy
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Pentagon 'three-day blitz' plan for attacking Iran
In message , Colin Campbell
writes On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:27:44 +0100, "Paul J. Adam" wrote: What, all military decisions require on-the-spot signoff by the Commander in Chief? All of the ones where he has not delegated the authority. So why not get him to delegate the authority here, given that this is a fleeting target and the time taken to beg for permission to fire may be enough to let bin-Laden escape? Or is it easier to back off, avoid a difficult mission and then blame everything on that nasty President? Except that this scenario describes enough surveillance and intelligence to have a decent confidence of bin-Laden's whereabouts and movement, and sufficient military assets in place to make a credible effort at killing him. All that effort and nobody sorted out delegation? The military does what the President says. If the President refused to delegate that sort of decision, then the military has to abide by that decision. The phrase "mute insubordination" comes to mind. "We did exactly what we were told. Yes, we knew it would fail and it was silly. No, we didn't tell the boss, we don't like the boss. So it's all his fault." When the CinC is wrong, part of the job is to tell him so. No, it's not easy. This all boils down to the fact that the military follows the polices set by the President. If he has stated that he has to give approval for certain types of operations then the military has to wait on his decision. Wah. Did nobody - did *not one person* - have the balls to point out that this was a bad idea against a fleeting target? What we have here is an example of why military morale was so poor during the Clinton years. I'm not surprised. I'd hate to serve in a military more interested in scoring political points off its Commander in Chief, than in doing its job. -- The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)codotuk
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#6
September 8th 07, 04:17 AM
posted to us.military.army,us.military,rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,us.military.navy
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Pentagon 'three-day blitz' plan for attacking Iran
On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:49:02 +0100, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote: In message , Colin Campbell writes On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:27:44 +0100, "Paul J. Adam" wrote: What, all military decisions require on-the-spot signoff by the Commander in Chief? All of the ones where he has not delegated the authority. So why not get him to delegate the authority here, given that this is a fleeting target and the time taken to beg for permission to fire may be enough to let bin-Laden escape? They tried. He refused to delegate the authority. Or is it easier to back off, avoid a difficult mission and then blame everything on that nasty President? Except that this scenario describes enough surveillance and intelligence to have a decent confidence of bin-Laden's whereabouts and movement, and sufficient military assets in place to make a credible effort at killing him. All that effort and nobody sorted out delegation? The military does what the President says. If the President refused to delegate that sort of decision, then the military has to abide by that decision. The phrase "mute insubordination" comes to mind. "We did exactly what we were told. Yes, we knew it would fail and it was silly. No, we didn't tell the boss, we don't like the boss. So it's all his fault." When the CinC is wrong, part of the job is to tell him so. No, it's not easy. It is even harder when he refuses to listen. The fact of the matter is that they did the best they could within the orders they were given. This all boils down to the fact that the military follows the polices set by the President. If he has stated that he has to give approval for certain types of operations then the military has to wait on his decision. Wah. Did nobody - did *not one person* - have the balls to point out that this was a bad idea against a fleeting target? Yes. But it did not do any good. What we have here is an example of why military morale was so poor during the Clinton years. I'm not surprised. I'd hate to serve in a military more interested in scoring political points off its Commander in Chief, than in doing its job. Do you have any factual basis for that accusation? -- There can be no triumph without loss. No victory without suffering. No freedom without sacrifice.
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