Syrian and Iranian AF 2003

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message ...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
I'm afraid you're wrong. Syria aquired 14 Su-27s from Russia in 2000
and they are listed in every updated aircraft reference book I have.
Syrian AF 826 Squadron operates them.

The 826th FS still flies MiG-21bis, from al-Quasyr AB.

Here's a link on the Syrian AF:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...a/airforce.htm

Like so many others it lists the Su-27 in the Syrian AF inventory.

As for the Iranian captured
Iraqi Su-25s, none are operational that's why they are not listed in
any updated reference manual.

Ok, so, how do you explain two of´them being displayed in IRGCAF markings on
a special part of the military parade held in Tehran, on 22 September this
year?

Or, how do you explain the US complaints about Georgian technicians
refubishing them in Iran?

BTW, they were not "captured" from Iraq, but flown to Iran by defecting
Iraqi pilots...

Displayed aircraft are not the same as operational aircraft. Please
tell us the Iranian unit that operates the Frogfoots- you can't
because they are non-op. BTW, the aircraft were indeed captured as
Iran refused to return them to Iraq after the war.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

"Tom Cooper" wrote in message ...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
I'm afraid you're wrong. Syria aquired 14 Su-27s from Russia in 2000
and they are listed in every updated aircraft reference book I have.
Syrian AF 826 Squadron operates them.

Being the one who published the first report about the Su-27s being seen in
Syria (in AFM volume July 2000, p.16), and the one who corrected it (as said
above, AFM volume July 2003, p.18), I have a strong feeling Robert, you're
talking about things you don't have a slightest clue about. To cite myself:

"No Flankers in Syria
Contrary to press reports in 2000, it is now known that the Syrian Arab Air
Force (SyAAF) is not operating Su-27s (amending "Four Flankers in Syria,
July 2000, pl.16). However, this does not mean that the Su-27 has never been
seen in Syria, as reported at the time. In 1999 and 2000, Moscow started
intensive efforts to sell Su-27s to Damascus and there are indications that
the Russians are still trying to do so. On no fewer than four occasions,
Su-27s have been flown to Syria in order to be demonstrated to the SyAAF
pilots and engineering officers, in order to familiarise them with the
aircraft. One such event took place in autumn 1999, and another in April
2000, when two Su-27s drawn from Russian Air Force units were deployed to
the SyAAF Academy at Minakh AB, a further two going directly to Damascus. On
both occasions, the aircraft also carried "full" SyAAF markings, and a group
of Syrian pilots was permitted to fly them, putting the aircraft through a
series of intensive and prolonged tests. Quite why the Syrians did not in
the end purchase the Su-27s remains unclear - one reason was almost
certainly the lack of funding on the Syrian side. However, Syrian sources
stress that this was not exactly the case, saying they were refusing Russian
requests to pay debts for equipment supplied during the 1980s, variously
reported to be between $2 and $5 billion.
The Syrians were unwilling to pay for equipment which in their opinion was
neither "top of the range" nor effective in combat against the Israeli. It
seems that Moscow somehow accepted this decision and orders for certain
other weapons, including AT-14 ATGMs, were accepted, with deliveries
commencing in 2002. The Su-27 deal was not, however, to be finalised.
Another problem seems to have been the fact that Rosobornexport was offering
Syria only eight Su-27s and four Su-27UBs (at an unknown price) in April
2001; one month later another offer was made, for then Su-27S and two
Su-27UBs. The Syrians, however, wanted many more Flankers. Citing a study
prepared for the SyAAF, Damascus stressed that 42 Flankers would be the
absolute minimum to be of any use to the Syrian Air Force. It remains
unknown why the Russians refused to supply this many. When negotiations with
Sukhoi fell through, the SyAAF went back to RSK MiG and ordered 22 MiG-29s
(all second-hand/used airframes, but upgraded to an as-yet-unknown
standard), together with 300 "upgraded air-to-air missiles" of unspecified
type. At least 16 of these Fulcrums were delivered to Syria in 2001 and
2002, and are believed* to be operational with one of the three units flying
the type. Interestingly, this deal was never announced by RSK MiG or made
public."

*Meanwhile it is _known_ that they are operational.

The 826th FS still flies MiG-21bis, from al-Quasyr AB.

As for the Iranian captured
Iraqi Su-25s, none are operational that's why they are not listed in
any updated reference manual.

Ok, so, how do you explain two of´them being displayed in IRGCAF markings on
a special part of the military parade held in Tehran, on 22 September this
year?

Or, how do you explain the US complaints about Georgian technicians
refubishing them in Iran?

BTW, they were not "captured" from Iraq, but flown to Iran by defecting
Iraqi pilots...

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Now I'm really confused. I got out two fairly new aircraft reference
books to verify the aircraft listed and both list the Su-27 in Syrian
inventory. These books a

- the Directory of Military Aircraft of the World 2001 by Peter March
- the Pocket Guide to Military Aircraft and the World's Airforces 2001
by David Donald

These books also fail to list the Su-25 in Iranian inventory.

I don't have an updated Jane's All the World's Aircraft but could
someone please check the latest volume and see if the information is
the same?

I see you disagree Tom, but every book and online source I've seen
says otherwise. The facts seem to be that 14 Su-27s were purchased by
Syria in 2000 and remain there, operational by the Syrian AF.

I also can't find any reference material that supports your claim that
the Iranian AF actually flies the Su-25. It is my belief that the
aircraft are kept as war trophies and used for propaganda purposes. If
not can you provide some information on the training units for this
aircraft and/or proof of operation?

Kenneth Williams

"robert arndt"

I'm afraid you're wrong. Syria aquired 14 Su-27s from Russia in 2000
and they are listed in every updated aircraft reference book I have.
Syrian AF 826 Squadron operates them. As for the Iranian captured
Iraqi Su-25s, none are operational that's why they are not listed in
any updated reference manual.

Rob

Rob, consider Coalition forces stationed in the immediate region around
Syria. The Flanker does not exist on any threat assessment of Syria. There
is a reason for this simply because the Syrians do not operate the type. The
Iranians have been keen to obtain more Su-25 airframes. This year they
received a delivery of additional Su-25s. Reference books and on-line
references are all very good, but like that list you provided of Iranian and
Syrian fighter/bomber inventories they are prone to error. Flankers were in
Syria, and similarly Algeria, only for potential
sales/evaluation/demonstration purposes only.

TJ

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...

AF: 40 F-4D/E
6 RF-4E
20 F-14A
40 MiG-29
30 SU-24MK
44 SU-20/22
45 F-5E/F
18 F-7
18 F-6
19 MIRAGE F1

This list is actually rather misinforming than helpfull. For example: Iran
has no 40 MiG-29s, the number is lower, and I would certainly not put them
on the first place of that list. But, Iran has at least 9 RF-4Es, and quite
a few more F-4D/Es; all the Su-20/22s acquired from Iraq are out of service
already since years (actually, they were never in service: few examples were
test-flown, the wrecks of the others can now be seen two times a year on
different shows in Tehran); F-7s were given to Sudan and Tanzania, and all
the "IRGCAF: Take 1" F-6s are "stored" on some junkyard near Tehran already
since 20 years....

Syria:

14 SU-27

There are no Su-27s in Syria: the Russians flew four of them to Syria for
display purposes on two occassions in 2001. Due to the aircraft wearing full
SyAAF markings while in Syria, the people who saw them understood they would
be already in service. See AirForcesMonthly magazine, volume July 2003,
p.18.

60 MiG-29/UB

Given that the Syrians have got only 36 MiG-29s in 1988 and 1989, that two
of these were shot down by the Israelis in 1989, and two in 2001, and that
two are known to have been lost to other reasons, as well as that they have
purchased 16 examples in 2001, I doubt that there could be 60 of them in
Syria...

20 SU-24MK

Given that the Syrians have lost one in a training accidents, but have got
at least three replacements from Libya, I doubt this figure is truth either.

96 SU-20/22/BKL

There is nothing like "SU-20/22/BKL"; there was, once before, the Su-7BKL in
the USSR, but this version was never exported (Su-7B and Su-7BMKs were
exported). Most of the surviving SyAAF Su-20s and Su-22s are
inoperational(this is what causes some sources to claim that the "SyAAF is
short of collapse")....

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585