ATC mutiny brewing

On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 16:13:15 -0500, Michael Ash
wrote:

It would be a hell of a lot more pleasant for sure, and also a hell of a
lot more expensive. Remember the term "jet set"? Remember *why* that term
was used to refer to the leisure rich?

Was? G

Personally I'd rather have today's craptastic air travel than go back to
top-class service which I can't ever afford to have.

Travel across the field to the charter terminal, or visit your local
"executive" airport. Also, research "NetJet" charters and "shared"
charters.

That's where lots of airline profits went post-9/11. No security
hassles, no waiting in long lines while the cattle deal with their own
security hassles (Why can't I carry my spear gun or taser in the
cabin?), easy parking, and a perceived lower likelyhood of somebody
messing with the airplane to start with. On a shared charter, you
might even pick the departure time.

Many of the folks you see these days in First Class didn't buy the
ticket, they exchanged FF miles, or got them through some corporate
travel come-on. The executives, athletes, celebrities, all far below
the leisure rich, are over at the private side of the airport.

Remember 20 years ago, when we'd see famous folks in the airport while
we waited to board?

Once upon a time, the full-fare coach and first class passengers paid
lots of costs, and the super-saver fare was profit in empty seats. Not
to mention an enormous amount of mail, banking documents, and express
freight. Most of which now either moves by FedEx or UPS, or not at
all, as it's gone electronic.

In rec.aviation.student B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 16:13:15 -0500, Michael Ash
wrote:

It would be a hell of a lot more pleasant for sure, and also a hell of a
lot more expensive. Remember the term "jet set"? Remember *why* that term
was used to refer to the leisure rich?

Was? G

It's just not used much at all anymore. To the extent that it is used, it
still means that.

Personally I'd rather have today's craptastic air travel than go back to
top-class service which I can't ever afford to have.

Travel across the field to the charter terminal, or visit your local
"executive" airport. Also, research "NetJet" charters and "shared"
charters.
[snip]

You're right that the "bygone" service still exists if you can find it and
afford it. Which is pretty much my point. The people whining and
complaining that airline service isn't what it used to be are ignoring the
fact that if they pay what airline service used to cost they can get the
kind of service they want too. People just want something for nothing,
top-class service with $80 bargain-basement roundtrip tickets, which
obviously just isn't going to happen.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
YougotitSam wrote:


Here is the FAA's new priority with your tax money. Keep in mind we have
RECORD airline delays

Neither the FAA nor the Air Force would have the authority to fix the
record airline delays. It would take the ability to put into place
procedures that the air line lobby and their bought off flaks in
congress and the executive branch would never allow.

Or automation (that would allow such procedures) that the unions have
opposed, and the funding structure that does not create a revenue stream
that allows such modernization.

Matt Barrow wrote:
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

YougotitSam wrote:


Here is the FAA's new priority with your tax money. Keep in mind we have
RECORD airline delays

Neither the FAA nor the Air Force would have the authority to fix the
record airline delays. It would take the ability to put into place
procedures that the air line lobby and their bought off flaks in
congress and the executive branch would never allow.


Or automation (that would allow such procedures) that the unions have
opposed, and the funding structure that does not create a revenue stream
that allows such modernization.


It's mostly about commuter jets and not enough runways at major airports.

Sam Spade wrote:
Matt Barrow wrote:
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

YougotitSam wrote:


Here is the FAA's new priority with your tax money. Keep in mind we
have RECORD airline delays

Neither the FAA nor the Air Force would have the authority to fix the
record airline delays. It would take the ability to put into place
procedures that the air line lobby and their bought off flaks in
congress and the executive branch would never allow.


Or automation (that would allow such procedures) that the unions have
opposed, and the funding structure that does not create a revenue
stream that allows such modernization.

It's mostly about commuter jets and not enough runways at major airports.

Atlanta recently spent BILLIONS on a 5th runway and the
delays there now are WORSE than when they had 4 runways.
Apparently it is more than just a runway problem

The facts are the FAA is out of control and is filled with
incompetent women and minorities in senior management positions.

Dance around it all day but the problem is
BAD AND INCOMPETENT FAA MANAGEMENT

PERIOD

FAA EEO wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:
Matt Barrow wrote:
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

YougotitSam wrote:


Here is the FAA's new priority with your tax money. Keep in mind we
have RECORD airline delays

Neither the FAA nor the Air Force would have the authority to fix the
record airline delays. It would take the ability to put into place
procedures that the air line lobby and their bought off flaks in
congress and the executive branch would never allow.


Or automation (that would allow such procedures) that the unions have
opposed, and the funding structure that does not create a revenue
stream that allows such modernization.

It's mostly about commuter jets and not enough runways at major airports.

Atlanta recently spent BILLIONS on a 5th runway and the delays there now
are WORSE than when they had 4 runways. Apparently it is more than just
a runway problem

The facts are the FAA is out of control and is filled with incompetent
women and minorities in senior management positions.

Dance around it all day but the problem is
BAD AND INCOMPETENT FAA MANAGEMENT

PERIOD
The truth of the matter...
yes, Atlanta and the airlines (not the FAA) spent $billions on the 5th
runway. Flight delays immediately decreased significantly. A couple of
months later one of the otehr 4 runways was shut down for about 5 or 6
months for "renovations". During that time the airport again operated
with 4 runways and delays did increase to even worse than before the 5th
runway was completed. Once that runway was put back into service,
delays dropped back to the lower, almost acceptable, levels. Can you
imagine the problems if the 5th runway had not been built and Atlanta
had to operate on 3 runways while the one was renovated.
The biggest cause of flight delays is the airline scheduling and use of
more Regional jets on the same runways... RJs take essentially the same
runway space as traditional jets and only carry 1/4 to 1/3 as many
passangers. More airline flights trying to use the same runways, so
something has to give.
Mike: N44979 Archer II at RYY

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Mike wrote:
FAA EEO wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:
Matt Barrow wrote:
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

YougotitSam wrote:


Here is the FAA's new priority with your tax money. Keep in mind
we have RECORD airline delays

Neither the FAA nor the Air Force would have the authority to fix the
record airline delays. It would take the ability to put into place
procedures that the air line lobby and their bought off flaks in
congress and the executive branch would never allow.


Or automation (that would allow such procedures) that the unions
have opposed, and the funding structure that does not create a
revenue stream that allows such modernization.

It's mostly about commuter jets and not enough runways at major
airports.

Atlanta recently spent BILLIONS on a 5th runway and the delays there
now are WORSE than when they had 4 runways. Apparently it is more than
just a runway problem

The facts are the FAA is out of control and is filled with incompetent
women and minorities in senior management positions.

Dance around it all day but the problem is
BAD AND INCOMPETENT FAA MANAGEMENT

PERIOD
The truth of the matter...
yes, Atlanta and the airlines (not the FAA) spent $billions on the 5th
runway. Flight delays immediately decreased significantly. A couple of
months later one of the otehr 4 runways was shut down for about 5 or 6
months for "renovations". During that time the airport again operated
with 4 runways and delays did increase to even worse than before the 5th
runway was completed. Once that runway was put back into service,
delays dropped back to the lower, almost acceptable, levels. Can you
imagine the problems if the 5th runway had not been built and Atlanta
had to operate on 3 runways while the one was renovated.
The biggest cause of flight delays is the airline scheduling and use of
more Regional jets on the same runways... RJs take essentially the same
runway space as traditional jets and only carry 1/4 to 1/3 as many
passangers. More airline flights trying to use the same runways, so
something has to give.
Mike: N44979 Archer II at RYY


The ATL 10/28 was originally supposed to be a commuter
runway only. The Federal Government or FAA whatever you want
to call it kicked in quite a bit of the money also. I still
say you can build 50 new runways but if you can't modernize
and you treat your key personnel like crap it won't matter
what you do. The FAA has ruined the controller relationship
and caved into big contractors and purchased crap equipment
that has to be re-engineered in the field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ7h1ETVTBs

Unqualified and Incompetent FAA Management has led to the
mess the ATC system is in. I am not sure short of a NASA
type overhaul like after the shuttle Challenger blew up if
anything of substance will be done. Sadly the FAA has not
had it's Challenger. Yet.

Here is the FAA priority with our tax money now.I am not
sure what this link has to do with Air Safety but
the FAA cares more about this crap than their mission now.
Most of the FAA is consumed with political correctness and
could care less about aviation. It's all about Kumbaya and
Diversity. The Emperor has no clothes.

https://employees.faa.gov/employee_s...ions_programs/

FAA Civil Rights wrote in
:

Mike wrote:
FAA EEO wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:
Matt Barrow wrote:
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

YougotitSam wrote:


Here is the FAA's new priority with your tax money. Keep in mind
we have RECORD airline delays

Neither the FAA nor the Air Force would have the authority to fix
the record airline delays. It would take the ability to put into
place procedures that the air line lobby and their bought off
flaks in congress and the executive branch would never allow.


Or automation (that would allow such procedures) that the unions
have opposed, and the funding structure that does not create a
revenue stream that allows such modernization.

It's mostly about commuter jets and not enough runways at major
airports.

Atlanta recently spent BILLIONS on a 5th runway and the delays there
now are WORSE than when they had 4 runways. Apparently it is more
than just a runway problem

The facts are the FAA is out of control and is filled with
incompetent women and minorities in senior management positions.

Dance around it all day but the problem is
BAD AND INCOMPETENT FAA MANAGEMENT

PERIOD
The truth of the matter...
yes, Atlanta and the airlines (not the FAA) spent $billions on the
5th runway. Flight delays immediately decreased significantly. A
couple of months later one of the otehr 4 runways was shut down for
about 5 or 6 months for "renovations". During that time the airport
again operated with 4 runways and delays did increase to even worse
than before the 5th runway was completed. Once that runway was put
back into service, delays dropped back to the lower, almost
acceptable, levels. Can you imagine the problems if the 5th runway
had not been built and Atlanta had to operate on 3 runways while the
one was renovated. The biggest cause of flight delays is the airline
scheduling and use of more Regional jets on the same runways... RJs
take essentially the same runway space as traditional jets and only
carry 1/4 to 1/3 as many passangers. More airline flights trying to
use the same runways, so something has to give.
Mike: N44979 Archer II at RYY


The ATL 10/28 was originally supposed to be a commuter
runway only. The Federal Government or FAA whatever you want
to call it kicked in quite a bit of the money also. I still
say you can build 50 new runways but if you can't modernize
and you treat your key personnel like crap it won't matter
what you do. T



Yes, and thank God you're saying it in usenet.


Bertie

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:43:27 -0400, Mike wrote
in :

The biggest cause of flight delays is the airline scheduling and use of
more Regional jets on the same runways... RJs take essentially the same
runway space as traditional jets and only carry 1/4 to 1/3 as many
passangers. More airline flights trying to use the same runways, so
something has to give.

It would appear that the majority of Boeing's airliner production is
the 737 (118 to 215 seats*) currently:

Boeing Reports Third-Quarter 2007 Deliveries

CHICAGO, Oct. 04, 2007 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] today
announced deliveries across its commercial and defense operations
for the third quarter of 2007.

Major program deliveries during the third quarter were as follows:

Major Programs 3rd Quarter
2007 Year-to-Date
2007
Commercial Airplanes Programs
737 81 250
747 5 12
767 3 9
777 20 58
Total 109 329

Integrated Defense Systems Programs
Apache (New Builds)
9 17
Chinook (New Builds)
1 7
C-17
4 12
C-32/C-40 0 2
F/A-18E/F and EA-18G 11 33
Satellites (Government & Commercial) 1 4
T-45TS 2 7
F-15 3 6
Delta II - Commercial 1 2
###


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 21:43:27 -0400, Mike wrote
in :

The biggest cause of flight delays is the airline scheduling and use of
more Regional jets on the same runways... RJs take essentially the same
runway space as traditional jets and only carry 1/4 to 1/3 as many
passangers. More airline flights trying to use the same runways, so
something has to give.

It would appear that the majority of Boeing's airliner production is
the 737 (118 to 215 seats*) currently:

Boeing Reports Third-Quarter 2007 Deliveries

CHICAGO, Oct. 04, 2007 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] today
announced deliveries across its commercial and defense operations
for the third quarter of 2007.

Major program deliveries during the third quarter were as follows:

Major Programs 3rd Quarter
2007 Year-to-Date
2007
Commercial Airplanes Programs
737 81 250
747 5 12
767 3 9
777 20 58
Total 109 329

Integrated Defense Systems Programs
Apache (New Builds)
9 17
Chinook (New Builds)
1 7
C-17
4 12
C-32/C-40 0 2
F/A-18E/F and EA-18G 11 33
Satellites (Government & Commercial) 1 4
T-45TS 2 7
F-15 3 6
Delta II - Commercial 1 2
###


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737
Yes, the 737 has been the most popular passenger jet for some time now.
But, the number of aircraft delivered by Boeing is not very
signicicant... Check the number of aircraft delivered or in use by US
airlines and you will find a huge increase in the use of Regional Jets.
Remember, Boeing does not manufacture a RJ (neither does Airbus). The
big RJ producers are Bombardier (Canadair RJ) and Embracer. Also, you
can't look at the aircraft 'owned' by the major airlines because most of
the RJs are flown by the "Commuter" airlines (ASA, Comair, American
Eagle, etc.)
Go to the major airport hubs where the long queues form for takeoff and
look at aircraft types... about half will be RJs these days. (Because
they fly shorter routes and turn around faster, they make more take-offs
and landings than larger, 'standard' jets, compounding the problem.)
Mike

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com