Airlines running fuel margins thin

wrote:


...apparently the captains lack the necessary backbone to tell
dispatch that they need more gas. instead they just blindly follow
company policy and whatever dispatch tells them.


I wouldn't bet on that.


Jack

On Nov 9, 3:52 am, J a c k wrote:
wrote:

...apparently the captains lack the necessary backbone to tell
dispatch that they need more gas. instead they just blindly follow
company policy and whatever dispatch tells them.

I wouldn't bet on that.

Jack

With the upheaval in the Airline business, there has been much
pressure to lower costs, and prevent waist. As a life long Airline
pilot, I can look back over many instances where that "little extra
for the wife and kids" made the difference between landing at the
destination, and diverting to "land short".

Statistical however, the bean counters make a surprisingly good
argument concerning the system-wide cumulative effects of each flight
"wasting" that portion of the extra that is consumed (as a result of
increased fuel burn due to higher weight). This would account for why
southwest might tanker fuel more that america west, the shorter the
leg, the less the waste of carrying excess fuel.

One thing I know for sure from personal observation, once a pilot has
the "Disease" (as I describe it to my co-pilots), this orthodoxy of
thinking seems to result in the success of the flight being weighed
with an obsessive over-emphasis on how much fuel was saved.

It all boils down to who you feel you work for. If your first loyalty
is to the company, you are much more likely to "have the disease". If,
however, you feel your fiduciary responsibility is to the folks in the
back, you get to know the voice of the dispatchers a bit better,
because we are not allowed to add more than a modest amount on the
computer, above that amount, we must "defend" our request directly
with dispatch.

I know of at least one other Capt at Warner Springs who spend as much
time on the phone as I do. ;-)

wrote:
On Nov 9, 3:52 am, J a c k wrote:
wrote:

...apparently the captains lack the necessary backbone to tell
dispatch that they need more gas. instead they just blindly follow
company policy and whatever dispatch tells them.

I wouldn't bet on that.

Jack

With the upheaval in the Airline business, there has been much
pressure to lower costs, and prevent waist. As a life long Airline
pilot, I can look back over many instances where that "little extra
for the wife and kids" made the difference between landing at the
destination, and diverting to "land short".

Statistical however, the bean counters make a surprisingly good
argument concerning the system-wide cumulative effects of each flight
"wasting" that portion of the extra that is consumed (as a result of
increased fuel burn due to higher weight). This would account for why
southwest might tanker fuel more that america west, the shorter the
leg, the less the waste of carrying excess fuel.

One thing I know for sure from personal observation, once a pilot has
the "Disease" (as I describe it to my co-pilots), this orthodoxy of
thinking seems to result in the success of the flight being weighed
with an obsessive over-emphasis on how much fuel was saved.

It all boils down to who you feel you work for. If your first loyalty
is to the company, you are much more likely to "have the disease". If,
however, you feel your fiduciary responsibility is to the folks in the
back, you get to know the voice of the dispatchers a bit better,
because we are not allowed to add more than a modest amount on the
computer, above that amount, we must "defend" our request directly
with dispatch.

I know of at least one other Capt at Warner Springs who spend as much
time on the phone as I do. ;-)


Contrary to the apparently recent awakening of a letter-to-the-editor
writer in Airline Pilot magazine, the power to "Just say no" has been
around since day one and is certainly one of the more useful tools.
Those four stripes and the union dues that go along with them don't mean
much if we don't run the show on our own terms when it comes down to the
basics of fuel, weather, etc. There are other ways to get the point
across in addition to parking it, of course.

I enjoyed it, but I don't miss it.

I do like the way we do it at my glider club--every member is the safety
officer, so a wheel doesn't turn unless everybody on the scene is happy
with the arrangement.



Jack

Dont say that! (I'm headed to Australia.)

I can't seriously imagine their shorting fuel loads
on these flights; the conversation by American was
about hauling a full load both ways east/west coast
instead of re-fueling at both ends.

At 21:54 08 November 2007, wrote:
On Nov 8, 12:56 pm, wrote:
On Nov 8, 11:17 am, 'Alistair Wright'
wrote:


Its only a matter of time before
they genuinely run one out of gas. from what i have
found so far, i
can only find one genuine run out of gas previously,
by a south
american airline headed to JFK.


United ran one dry near Portland, OR sometime in the
late 1960s.

I think it's unlikely that anyone will run out in a
domestic US
operation,
carrying 45 minutes of reserve fuel. Worst case: land
short of the
destination, at an airport. The real issue is crossing
the ocean.
This
does not include mismeasurement, fuel leaks, or the
like.

Two recent experiences. A US Airways (America West) flight I was on
that was put on a holding pattern inbound to Phoenix had to divert to
California after ten minutes because of low fuel. We were stuck on
the ground for two hours while they refueled. Then we got put on
weather hold on our second attempt into Phoenix a half hour later and
had to divert to Tucson, again because of low fuel.

A month later, a Southwest flight I was on was delayed at the gate,
and the captain entertained us with his weight and balance data
(honest). It included the fact that we carrying a full load of fuel
on a short flight because Southwest buys fuel where it's cheapest and
carries it on board if the carrying cost is low.

Guess which airline is getting my business?

Mike