Ferry flight a commercial op?

No, but it IS in their legal rulings.

Helen

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Helen wrote in
news:5zs_i.5854$VB6.2737@trnddc06:

The FAA can interpret you logging the flight time as compensation and
as such the CFI is correct. I've actually had a long chat with AOPA
on this subject. I manage a light sport flight school and most of my
staff are age 60+ and don't carry medicals. They'd need a second
class one to ferry a plane if we paid them for their time. If they
volunteer their time though, it gets gray. AOPA is pretty certain
though we're OK letting them ferry planes as volunteers though just
for the simple fact that the FAA would have a hard time making a case
that a 68 year old 40,000 hour pilot, really considered the .5 of
hobbs time as compensation he could use for his up and coming career.

Assuming you aren't age 68 with 40,000 hours, you should probably
avoid the ferry duty.


I disagree. There's nothing in the FARs that says that flying time has a
value.
If you go pich up your friend's car somewhere for him it doesn't make you a
taxi driver.

Bertie

Helen wrote in
news:KSs_i.5976$VB6.2248@trnddc06:

No, but it IS in their legal rulings.



Still, can't se them making a case out of it unless they were trying to get
at someone for something else that was upsetting them.



I know one I can ask next time I see him, but he's the most anti FAA person
I ever met, even though he's an inspector for them.



Bertie

Just call AOPA. All of our membership dollars pay those folks to sit
around reading the FAA legal interpretations. You'll be surprised at
some of the petty cases the FAA has taken on under this rule to
prosecute well meaning pilots.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Helen wrote in
news:KSs_i.5976$VB6.2248@trnddc06:

No, but it IS in their legal rulings.



Still, can't se them making a case out of it unless they were trying to get
at someone for something else that was upsetting them.



I know one I can ask next time I see him, but he's the most anti FAA person
I ever met, even though he's an inspector for them.



Bertie

Here's a good write-up on the subject. Note in the case listed, it
wasn't even logged flight hours that the FAA cited as "compensation,"
but simply "good will."

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...04/pc0403.html

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Helen wrote in
news:5zs_i.5854$VB6.2737@trnddc06:

The FAA can interpret you logging the flight time as compensation and
as such the CFI is correct. I've actually had a long chat with AOPA
on this subject. I manage a light sport flight school and most of my
staff are age 60+ and don't carry medicals. They'd need a second
class one to ferry a plane if we paid them for their time. If they
volunteer their time though, it gets gray. AOPA is pretty certain
though we're OK letting them ferry planes as volunteers though just
for the simple fact that the FAA would have a hard time making a case
that a 68 year old 40,000 hour pilot, really considered the .5 of
hobbs time as compensation he could use for his up and coming career.

Assuming you aren't age 68 with 40,000 hours, you should probably
avoid the ferry duty.


I disagree. There's nothing in the FARs that says that flying time has a
value.
If you go pich up your friend's car somewhere for him it doesn't make you a
taxi driver.

Bertie

In a previous article, Helen said:
Here's a good write-up on the subject. Note in the case listed, it
wasn't even logged flight hours that the FAA cited as "compensation,"
but simply "good will."

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...04/pc0403.html

But that's carrying passengers. I'm not going to be carrying passengers.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
There is only one thing worse than walking out to a plane knowing it will
be your last flight - that is walking out to a plane not knowing it will
be your last flight.

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in news:fhf54d$67b$1
@xen1.xcski.com:

In a previous article, Helen said:
Here's a good write-up on the subject. Note in the case listed, it
wasn't even logged flight hours that the FAA cited as "compensation,"
but simply "good will."

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...04/pc0403.html

But that's carrying passengers. I'm not going to be carrying passengers.



IO still think you're OK. There's the letter of the law and the spirit of
the law. The law requiring you to have a commercial licence to fly for
dough is to further public safety. IOW someone paying for flying has a
right to a certain standards otherwise we'd have a bunch of Anthonys flying
airliners.
Your operation would not endanger the public anymore than if you were fling
your own or a rented airplane from a to b.
Having said that, some FAA types are natural born policemen and can't see
past the nose on their faces. Most can, though.


Bertie

Helen wrote in news:fZs_i.6012$VB6.114@trnddc06:

Here's a good write-up on the subject. Note in the case listed, it
wasn't even logged flight hours that the FAA cited as "compensation,"
but simply "good will."

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...04/pc0403.html

In the case you describe, a guy paid a charter service to ferry a bunch of
people back and forth to his restaurant. Instead of paying the charter
service for a second run, his friend made MULTIPLE trips to bring the rest
of the group there.

All of the customers paid for charter services. Even though the pilot
didn't get compensated, the fact is someone who paid to be flown to a party
on an island was flown to a pilot on an island through arrangements of the
receiver of money.

While I think the FAA was probably somewhat harsh on the pilot in this
case, and the explanation of "goodwill" is actually more problematic than
if they would have just said that the flights were not incidental to the
business of transporting the partygoers to the party, the fact is I can see
where this merits the opinion that was made.

Furthermore, I suspect if it were just one trip, no one would have
complained about it - it becomes a guy who gave a lift to some folks that
were headed the same way and missed their plane. But he made several trips
back and forth. In doing so, he essentially competed with the charter
company, and clearly they reported him to the FAA for it.

In the club plane delivery case described above, I don't think any of these
situations need apply. A guy is delivering his club's plane to it's new
owner. He may as well be delivering it to a mechanic for maintenance...

The only case where I might agree with the CFI is if the club was
specifically paid to deliver the plane to the buyer, separately from the
purchase price of the airplane. If that's the case, then it might somewhat
resemble the case you described above.

But I doubt the club was specifically paid for ferrying the plane...

I have a legal opinion in PDF format on the subject some place around here
time is considered compensation unless you have a common purpose for the
trip visiting grandma/grab an ice cream cone then you would have to pay all
fuel etc for the trip to make it a non ferry flight.

NW_Pilot "A Ferry Pilot That Gets Paid"



"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
Helen wrote in
news:5zs_i.5854$VB6.2737@trnddc06:

The FAA can interpret you logging the flight time as compensation and
as such the CFI is correct. I've actually had a long chat with AOPA
on this subject. I manage a light sport flight school and most of my
staff are age 60+ and don't carry medicals. They'd need a second
class one to ferry a plane if we paid them for their time. If they
volunteer their time though, it gets gray. AOPA is pretty certain
though we're OK letting them ferry planes as volunteers though just
for the simple fact that the FAA would have a hard time making a case
that a 68 year old 40,000 hour pilot, really considered the .5 of
hobbs time as compensation he could use for his up and coming career.

Assuming you aren't age 68 with 40,000 hours, you should probably
avoid the ferry duty.


I disagree. There's nothing in the FARs that says that flying time has a
value.
If you go pich up your friend's car somewhere for him it doesn't make you
a
taxi driver.

Bertie

And additional...
http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/ar...m?article=1467

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Helen wrote in
news:5zs_i.5854$VB6.2737@trnddc06:

The FAA can interpret you logging the flight time as compensation and
as such the CFI is correct. I've actually had a long chat with AOPA
on this subject. I manage a light sport flight school and most of my
staff are age 60+ and don't carry medicals. They'd need a second
class one to ferry a plane if we paid them for their time. If they
volunteer their time though, it gets gray. AOPA is pretty certain
though we're OK letting them ferry planes as volunteers though just
for the simple fact that the FAA would have a hard time making a case
that a 68 year old 40,000 hour pilot, really considered the .5 of
hobbs time as compensation he could use for his up and coming career.

Assuming you aren't age 68 with 40,000 hours, you should probably
avoid the ferry duty.


I disagree. There's nothing in the FARs that says that flying time has a
value.
If you go pich up your friend's car somewhere for him it doesn't make you a
taxi driver.

Bertie

"Helen" wrote in message
news:Nbt_i.6091$VB6.694@trnddc06...
And additional...
http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/ar...m?article=1467

Thanks, Helen. A couple of thoughts:

"The FAA's position on sharing expenses is not supported by the language of
61.118(b), but pilots need to be aware of the FAA's policy. Current FAA
enforcement policy is so strict that if a private pilot ferries an airplane
at no charge, with no passengers on board, the FAA position is that the free
flying time is compensation for the private pilot, and therefore a violation
of 61.118. "
So the CFI was correct. At some point, I'd be likely to say that the FAA
could kiss my ass. As a private pilot, the risk of a 90-day suspension
isn't enough to offset the hazards of not remaining current because you
can't afford to. (As a commercially-licensed pilot with a small fraction of
the time as many of the PPL holders out here, I guess the FAA has decided
I'm more qualified to "cope with the demans of charter flying" so it's not
my problem.)

Lastly, the comment: "Private pilots can build time cheaply and safely."

I wonder what combination of prescription drugs and lack of oxygen would
prompt somebody to say something that absurd.

-c