Ferry flight a commercial op?

"Gatt" wrote in
:


"Helen" wrote in message
news:Nbt_i.6091$VB6.694@trnddc06...
And additional...
http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/ar...m?article=1467

Thanks, Helen. A couple of thoughts:

"The FAA's position on sharing expenses is not supported by the
language of 61.118(b), but pilots need to be aware of the FAA's
policy. Current FAA enforcement policy is so strict that if a private
pilot ferries an airplane at no charge, with no passengers on board,
the FAA position is that the free flying time is compensation for the
private pilot, and therefore a violation of 61.118. "
So the CFI was correct. At some point, I'd be likely to say that the
FAA could kiss my ass. As a private pilot, the risk of a 90-day
suspension isn't enough to offset the hazards of not remaining current
because you can't afford to. (As a commercially-licensed pilot with a
small fraction of the time as many of the PPL holders out here, I
guess the FAA has decided I'm more qualified to "cope with the demans
of charter flying" so it's not my problem.)

Lastly, the comment: "Private pilots can build time cheaply and
safely."

I wonder what combination of prescription drugs and lack of oxygen
would prompt somebody to say something that absurd.



hear hear,


Bertie

Recently, Gatt posted:

"Helen" wrote in message
news:Nbt_i.6091$VB6.694@trnddc06...
And additional...
http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/ar...m?article=1467

Thanks, Helen. A couple of thoughts:

"The FAA's position on sharing expenses is not supported by the
language of
61.118(b), but pilots need to be aware of the FAA's policy. Current
FAA enforcement policy is so strict that if a private pilot ferries
an airplane at no charge, with no passengers on board, the FAA
position is that the free flying time is compensation for the private
pilot, and therefore a violation of 61.118. "
So the CFI was correct.

Note that the relevant condition is that the flying time is free. If the
pilot picks up the expense (possibly only 50% of the expense), then
there is no issue with this policy.

Neil

On Nov 13, 6:54 pm, Helen wrote:

I would like to provide some clarification to your post.
The FAA can interpret you logging the flight time as compensation and as
such the CFI is correct.

The question here is Would they. You are dealing with many different
FISDO's and they will all have a different interpritaion on this. I
doubt this would hold up in court. There are also many many ways to
get around this. With this being on Usnet I am sue we will read
several of the ways


I've actually had a long chat with AOPA on
this subject.

Dont believe what you hear from AOPA! I have known people who have
recieved so much bad advise over the years it makes me sad. Judging
from the responses I have heard from AOPA, you have alot of marginally
qualified people over there who are just regurging reference material
they dont understand.



I manage a light sport flight school and most of my staff
are age 60+ and don't carry medicals. They'd need a second class one to
ferry a plane if we paid them for their time. If they volunteer their
time though, it gets gray. AOPA is pretty certain though we're OK
letting them ferry planes as volunteers though just for the simple fact
that the FAA would have a hard time making a case that a 68 year old
40,000 hour pilot, really considered the .5 of hobbs time as
compensation he could use for his up and coming career.


My hat is off to you for running a flight school ! We could certainly
use more people like you but you should not try to be a lawyer. I
think Paul would be blowin it if he didnt take this flight.
KFB

On Nov 13, 5:54 pm, Helen wrote:
AOPA is pretty certain though we're OK
letting them ferry planes as volunteers though just for the simple fact
that the FAA would have a hard time making a case that a 68 year old
40,000 hour pilot, really considered the .5 of hobbs time as
compensation he could use for his up and coming career.

Did AOPA actually say that?

When has the FAA ever established that logging flight time is
considered "compensation"?

buttman wrote in news:1195010837.025449.286700
@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

On Nov 13, 5:54 pm, Helen wrote:
AOPA is pretty certain though we're OK
letting them ferry planes as volunteers though just for the simple fact
that the FAA would have a hard time making a case that a 68 year old
40,000 hour pilot, really considered the .5 of hobbs time as
compensation he could use for his up and coming career.

Did AOPA actually say that?

When has the FAA ever established that logging flight time is
considered "compensation"?



Depends on if you're actually gettingn anything out of the flying. Like
learning something.



You're ok.



Bertie

He fed you that line because he is not getting paid to ferry the aircraft.
Is the buyer paying for your time or travel expenses? No? Have fun, fly
safe.
B

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
The WWW is exciting because Microsoft doesn't own it, and therefore,
there's a tremendous amount of innovation happening.
-- Steve Jobs

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 00:01:14 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote in :

Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?

Who's funding the flight (time, fuel, insurance,...)?

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?


If your club is not specifically charging the new owner to deliver the
aircraft,

and you are not receiving compensation for delivering it,

you are good to go.

I have never heard of a case where accruing hours during a flight was
considered compensation.

The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.

Helen

Maxwell wrote:
"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?


If your club is not specifically charging the new owner to deliver the
aircraft,

and you are not receiving compensation for delivering it,

you are good to go.

I have never heard of a case where accruing hours during a flight was
considered compensation.

"Helen" wrote in message
news:PmG_i.9313$Vp3.521@trnddc05...
The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.

What if you don't log the time?

My humble opinion:

#1) The FAA will never know

#2) If they somehow find out, they will need to decide if it they feel it's
a violation.

#3) If they decide it's a violation, they have to decide to punish you.

If nothing happens, I feel then chances of #1 are pretty small. Even if #1
occurs, what is the likelyhood of #2 and #3 happening?