German historian provokes row over war photos

On 24 Oct 2003 04:09:42 GMT, (Regnirps) wrote:

Take a look at the competitors: von Papen and Schleisser? Both of
them were unpleasantly reactionary right-wingers, but even the latter,
basically a junta general, did not have the ambitions Hitler had. I
think it's quite tenable to assume that Weimar democracy might not
have survived the depression, but the personal influence of Hitler on
the road to war and the decision to wage war was absolutely critical.

I think a god argument can be made that the philosophy behind the neo-pagan
revivial that began in the 1890's would have lead inevitably to more war.
Already in WWI (The Great War for Civilization) the swastica was the most
common good luck tallisman among German troops. The pieces were all falling
into place. If not Hittler, then another. If it had come a few years later,
with the pace of German science, the results could have been somewhat
different.

Nonetheless, the strongest centre party was catholic and produced
chancellors like Brunning and the SPD remained the largest single
party for years. Hitler was able to exploit deep-seated, even
atavistic German prejudices, but his ultimate success required brutal
repression and connivance with more traditional reactionary powers who
realised their mistake too late. Look at what happened to von Papen
when he challenged the Nazi policy of repression when it moved beyond
godless communists, and how Ludendorf, who should have been an obvious
figurehead for right-wing fanatics, had come realise the true dangers
involved with Hitler by the time he became chancellor.

There might possibly have been a war, but it came much sooner and on a
much wider scale than I can possibly believe the traditional
reactionaries wanted. That came down to Hitler's personal influence.

Art Kramer is dead right about the main responsibility for this one.
We know that with Hitler at the helm, war and genocide were
inevitable. Whatever fantasies the right had about regaining national
honour, revening Versailles, expanding back into lost territories in
the East, their main motivation for aligning with Hitler was to find
the mass support they lacked to crush domestic enemies : the
socialists and social democrats and the democratic institutions that
allowed their mass support to obstruct reactionary hopes. If Weimar
had survived, there probably would not have been a war.

Gavin Bailey

--

"Will Boogie Down For Food".- Sign held by Disco Stu outside the unemployment office.

Subject: German historian provokes row over war photos
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
Date: 10/24/03 1:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Art Kramer is dead right about the main responsibility for this one.
We know that with Hitler at the helm, war and genocide were
inevitable. Whatever fantasies the right had about regaining national
honour, revening Versailles, expanding back into lost territories in
the East, their main motivation for aligning with Hitler was to find
the mass support they lacked to crush domestic enemies : the
socialists and social democrats and the democratic institutions that
allowed their mass support to obstruct reactionary hopes. If Weimar
had survived, there probably would not have been a war.

Gavin Bailey

Weimar was the great hope to take Germany out of its ancient warlike mode to a
modern Democracy. When it failed, hope was lost.

..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 24 Oct 2003 04:09:42 GMT, (Regnirps) wrote:

(The Revolution Will Not Be Televised) wrote:

There was no other party in the Weimar Republic, even the Communists,
who were as openly and avoidly dedicated to Hitlerian principles of
racial supremacy, internal repression and external aggression. The
Nazi party existed only as a vehicle for Hitler to achieve and
maintain power. It was totally and completely subordinated to the
whim of the leader. No other right-wing nationalist party had
anything like the adherence to outright dictatorship with irrational,
visionary goals.

Take a look at the competitors: von Papen and Schleisser? Both of
them were unpleasantly reactionary right-wingers, but even the latter,
basically a junta general, did not have the ambitions Hitler had. I
think it's quite tenable to assume that Weimar democracy might not
have survived the depression, but the personal influence of Hitler on
the road to war and the decision to wage war was absolutely critical.

I think a god argument can be made that the philosophy behind the neo-pagan
revivial that began in the 1890's would have lead inevitably to more war.
Already in WWI (The Great War for Civilization) the swastica was the most
common good luck tallisman among German troops. The pieces were all falling
into place. If not Hittler, then another. If it had come a few years later,
with the pace of German science, the results could have been somewhat
different.

-- Charlie Springer

Yes, we would have nuked them.

Al Minyard